I use 3.0.3x right now, works ok.
still has the WORST accel decel setup i have ever used in my life.
the revlimiter sux too.
but the car runs well out of the conditions.
starts well. accelerates smoothish.
has good power though, and economy is not bad..
Which MS2 firmware to use?
Re: Which MS2 firmware to use?
Worse than any other MS2 variant? Care to start a thread in firmware dev on how we SHOULD do this in FreeEMS?tpsretard wrote:still has the WORST accel decel setup i have ever used in my life.
Same line of questioning, explain?the revlimiter sux too.
Thanks for the feedback, good to know that it's pretty stable :-)
Fred.
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Re: Which MS2 firmware to use?
I will post here and then Maybe a New topic for them to get it into the firmware.
The Rev limiter.
The Rev limiter on the MS extra code dos not like to hold back a very high and free reving turbo engine. If i set 100 of 100 sparks to cut you would expect it to be a full and violent cut, but if i set the rev limit any higher than 7500rpm i can push past it to 8000rpm. This seems to be more prevalent with then coil on plug setup. With my other car that is still a dissy with one coil, that setting is like hitting a brick wall, with lots of pops and bangs, just as you would expect.
The Accel Enrichment.
There are 2 mods for this, AE or EAE. Nether are what they should be. If you use AE you cant safely run a high enough decel enlenment in sequential mode, as the outputs will vary in duty. this was supposed to be corrected but i still see it with anything more than 95%. In EAE it is slow to react with TPS and almost useless with my car. When using Map as the trigger it has the range you need but slow to engage you need to use a small amount of AE to sharpen the accel spike.
Problem with this is then at higher RPM there is no way to stop a rick spike as the normal AE dos not tale rpm into consideration. I just life with it. Now this said you can get good crisp throttle tip in's. But you will have to settle for ugly AFR's in one area or the next. If you setup the EAE to be aggressive enough to do it all it can sometimes stick or not be very slow in coming back to 100 (no enrichment)
The EAE also takes affect when starting the engine and makes my startup UGLY.. going way to rich or way to lean sometimes, there are times where it will actually stall out. But again have to live with it as i like the crisp tip in with how it is set.
EAE also has no decent filter adjustment for how sensitive it is. What i mean by this is that at idle it can make your AFR's go way off, as it will hunt back and forth as the main lookup for it is map. I run cams in my engine and a LIGHT as hell flywheel and pressure plate setup. (tilton single plate) so small changes in afr are big rpm swings. again have to live with it.
EAE is also very hard to set in the scene that the shape of the curve makes more of a difference than the numbers you are using. so higher is not always more and like wise for the opposite. The decel table depending on what you do can also affect the accel table too :S it is horible..
The rest of it.
I am still sure there is something not quit right with the subaru wheel decoder or some other part of the wheel decoder code as i get a lost sync when trying to start sometimes. Not always, and i have scoped it, there is no noise.
The sequential makes a big difference in how the engine runs and responds. dwel seems very constant. Ignition timing is constant once i set the pickup compensation delay as i am using VR sensors. PWM idle is not bad cut be a little better, but still it is pretty dam good. It dos need to have ac compensation and cooling fan compensation though.
Battery voltage compensation sux ass as it is only one valve and this is never linear.
VE needs to be more granular but diyefi already has this
The Rev limiter.
The Rev limiter on the MS extra code dos not like to hold back a very high and free reving turbo engine. If i set 100 of 100 sparks to cut you would expect it to be a full and violent cut, but if i set the rev limit any higher than 7500rpm i can push past it to 8000rpm. This seems to be more prevalent with then coil on plug setup. With my other car that is still a dissy with one coil, that setting is like hitting a brick wall, with lots of pops and bangs, just as you would expect.
The Accel Enrichment.
There are 2 mods for this, AE or EAE. Nether are what they should be. If you use AE you cant safely run a high enough decel enlenment in sequential mode, as the outputs will vary in duty. this was supposed to be corrected but i still see it with anything more than 95%. In EAE it is slow to react with TPS and almost useless with my car. When using Map as the trigger it has the range you need but slow to engage you need to use a small amount of AE to sharpen the accel spike.
Problem with this is then at higher RPM there is no way to stop a rick spike as the normal AE dos not tale rpm into consideration. I just life with it. Now this said you can get good crisp throttle tip in's. But you will have to settle for ugly AFR's in one area or the next. If you setup the EAE to be aggressive enough to do it all it can sometimes stick or not be very slow in coming back to 100 (no enrichment)
The EAE also takes affect when starting the engine and makes my startup UGLY.. going way to rich or way to lean sometimes, there are times where it will actually stall out. But again have to live with it as i like the crisp tip in with how it is set.
EAE also has no decent filter adjustment for how sensitive it is. What i mean by this is that at idle it can make your AFR's go way off, as it will hunt back and forth as the main lookup for it is map. I run cams in my engine and a LIGHT as hell flywheel and pressure plate setup. (tilton single plate) so small changes in afr are big rpm swings. again have to live with it.
EAE is also very hard to set in the scene that the shape of the curve makes more of a difference than the numbers you are using. so higher is not always more and like wise for the opposite. The decel table depending on what you do can also affect the accel table too :S it is horible..
The rest of it.
I am still sure there is something not quit right with the subaru wheel decoder or some other part of the wheel decoder code as i get a lost sync when trying to start sometimes. Not always, and i have scoped it, there is no noise.
The sequential makes a big difference in how the engine runs and responds. dwel seems very constant. Ignition timing is constant once i set the pickup compensation delay as i am using VR sensors. PWM idle is not bad cut be a little better, but still it is pretty dam good. It dos need to have ac compensation and cooling fan compensation though.
Battery voltage compensation sux ass as it is only one valve and this is never linear.
VE needs to be more granular but diyefi already has this
Re: Which MS2 firmware to use?
Great post!
I have no idea how to solve the AE/EAE stuff, but with feedback like that, if I listen, and you test, we'll get something to work well for you, no doubt. It's important to realise that this is not an easy thing to get right, though.
RPM limiter, yes, that's weird, the sort of weirdness that I expect from MS, to be honest. You won't get that from me :-)
Lost sync on different wheel decoders, possible, that'll be on a case by case basis, with datalogs and good feedback from real engines key. Tell me, which subby pattern are you using? One of them was wrong for a while, perhaps it still is? Another diyefi.org member has a subby powered plane and was complaining about it being wrong on the Jimstim, and therefore the ms2e firmware also.
Along with good table granularity, FreeEMS already has proper injector dead time curves too.
Thanks again.
Fred.
I have no idea how to solve the AE/EAE stuff, but with feedback like that, if I listen, and you test, we'll get something to work well for you, no doubt. It's important to realise that this is not an easy thing to get right, though.
RPM limiter, yes, that's weird, the sort of weirdness that I expect from MS, to be honest. You won't get that from me :-)
Lost sync on different wheel decoders, possible, that'll be on a case by case basis, with datalogs and good feedback from real engines key. Tell me, which subby pattern are you using? One of them was wrong for a while, perhaps it still is? Another diyefi.org member has a subby powered plane and was complaining about it being wrong on the Jimstim, and therefore the ms2e firmware also.
Along with good table granularity, FreeEMS already has proper injector dead time curves too.
Thanks again.
Fred.
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!
Re: Which MS2 firmware to use?
I do not think there is a way to solve the MS version of the AE/EAE, the intended principle is not bad. It is copied from ford i think, so what it is "SUPPOSED" to do would be nice, but it is the implementation that is really off. The writers that use it also say to use a little AE to get the EAE up to snuff, so if that is there attitude then it will never be right.
The wheel i am using is the strange subaru 6/7. There is something about this wheel that Subaru likes. The later cars used a 36-2-2-2 with a 2 tooth cam wheel at 90deg on the cam out. BUT, all the world rally and clubman cars revert back to the older wheels. But i know ms has something messed up still. There are some strange things that happen with these wheel.
I know it is not easy, i have built a little controller from an arduino to control the fresh air style antilag on a car that i have built, it also controls boost, very simply by a PW table. That alone was not simple and needed a lot of testing.. so i know it is not just 2 lines of code and go. I know it will not be perfect from day one. but the fact that you are willing to listen and realise that what works for your car might now work for other cars is what matters to me..
The wheel i am using is the strange subaru 6/7. There is something about this wheel that Subaru likes. The later cars used a 36-2-2-2 with a 2 tooth cam wheel at 90deg on the cam out. BUT, all the world rally and clubman cars revert back to the older wheels. But i know ms has something messed up still. There are some strange things that happen with these wheel.
I know it is not easy, i have built a little controller from an arduino to control the fresh air style antilag on a car that i have built, it also controls boost, very simply by a PW table. That alone was not simple and needed a lot of testing.. so i know it is not just 2 lines of code and go. I know it will not be perfect from day one. but the fact that you are willing to listen and realise that what works for your car might now work for other cars is what matters to me..
Re: Which MS2 firmware to use?
I'm sorry but I couldn't resist posting. Your attitude is not very good either. A reactive algorithm (EAE) will never react as fast as a predictive algorithm (AE). And all of your desire for it to be what you'd like it to be won't change it. If you can design the perfect algorithm then present it and I'm sure it will receive the attention it merits.tpsretard wrote:I do not think there is a way to solve the MS version of the AE/EAE, the intended principle is not bad. It is copied from ford i think, so what it is "SUPPOSED" to do would be nice, but it is the implementation that is really off. The writers that use it also say to use a little AE to get the EAE up to snuff, so if that is there attitude then it will never be right.
Jean
EDIT: I should add that there are also limitations to what can be implemented due to lack of resources both on the hardware side and human side.
Re: Which MS2 firmware to use?
maybe my attitude is not the best you are right, and i am sorry. Just SO fedup with the problems i have ad with it including it taking out one of my engines.
But i will say this, ford and toyota use similar methods, and it works fine for them.
I had the joy of working on a new ford RS500 the afr's are amazing, the guys at m sport tell me they dumped the reactive enrichment enleanment algorithms as the engine response was to fast for it.
With out being more negative i believe it should be the users choice. my 2 race cars HATE it, but the 3 stock road cars don't really seem to care much about it
But i will say this, ford and toyota use similar methods, and it works fine for them.
I had the joy of working on a new ford RS500 the afr's are amazing, the guys at m sport tell me they dumped the reactive enrichment enleanment algorithms as the engine response was to fast for it.
With out being more negative i believe it should be the users choice. my 2 race cars HATE it, but the 3 stock road cars don't really seem to care much about it