ms3

[EssEss]

I've not followed msqrt closely for a whlie now .. for at least 3 yrs now.

So, I'm reading the 16x16 discussion and seeing lots of comments about how the fueling calcs are going to be different. So I wanted to go browse the source.

to make a longer story short, I've wasted about 3hrs this morning browsing forums and the main site trying to find the source. I don't understand their source code plans, nor did I stumble across any discussion of it. does someone have a link or words of wisdom ?

I'm suspecting that this code is closed at this point and will only be avalable to select indivduals and/or resellers ? Code appears to be in the 'beta' section of the ms3 forum, but I'm not in the inner circle, so I have no access ... my login still appears valid at least

oh, here was my first (and last) ms project too:
http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=16347

this generation of controller looks promising, but I'm still very apprehensive.

-sean

[Fred]

The word on the street is that the code will be available in future, however I'm not so sure that I believe it, yet. You see, for that code to be useful, the GCC that they have modified will need to be distributed too, and that is something that could help us - thus it'll probably stay behind closed doors till they have it up and making money...

I'm curious about their fueling calcs, though. The old ones were bodgy/broken, perhaps they've followed my lead, again? :-)

[EssEss]

thanks - I sent mail to the 'moderators' and assumed they were the ones who were doing the dev work .. I never got a response.

ok - couple more:

1) Knowing this, isn't it as simple as asking for the patches .. and if they refuse, they would be violating the license ?
2) they can still choose to not open the code for review .. even if it was made w/free tools, right ?

[Fred]

1) No, they aren't violating the license until they distribute a binary, once they distribute a binary to someone, anyone, if that person wants they MUST be given the code. So, anyone on that inner circle that has the ms3 code, and can build it, using James and Ken's special GCC should have access to the modified GCC source. Any of those people can legally pass it (GCC) along to anyone else they see fit to give it to. AFAIK no contracts (NDA etc) can remove those rights to distribute that GCC fork should they choose to.
2) Yes, free tools do not apply any restrictions to the things you create with them, only to themselves and then only in continued freedom, if that. IE, that code is privately owned and they can do with it as they wish, only the GCC code is publicly owned.

Fred.

[longracing]

Just had a read through your thread on the ZXR build. Great work, nice attention to detail. I has got me thinking again about re-doing my FireBlade EFI... I will have to wait for some mechanical mods before I can justify hacking off the factory ECU but.

It does look as the MS trend is towards a closed loop of developers and an "off the shelf ECU" that will make a profit. I don't blame them for trying to make money but it would be nice to see it remain an open source project.

[EssEss]

It's up to them .. but knowing the previous trend of subpar code I'd like the option to at least inspect it.

1) I had so many problems w/my ms1extra, I was certain it was something outside my controller. But once I hooked up the scope and saw what was really going on, the f/w was always the first thing I blamed .. and since I could walk the code, I could actually confirm my problems.

2) It's easier to answer my questions by looking at the code rather than going through some 5-day back-n-forth thread which assumes I'm a complete dummy.

3) It gives me great satisfaction to figure out and show bugs in someone elses code when they claim that it's solid as a rock. I also get great satisifaction out of people doing the same thing to my code.

I'd still like to try it out .. It's just too bad that all the previous (quasi) transparency is now gone - that's what attracted me to it in the first place.

I still haven't heard anything back from anyone on the forum .. my next step will probably not go over well, but I'll probably just pose the same question on their forum. Maybe I can just offer to do some code work for them also, but they wouldn't like that if they knew I'd also be helping fred .... Anyway it goes - I don't care about the politics, but they do - I'm just the typical hardcore geek thats more interested in tech than profit.

[jbelanger]

Complaining about the code is easy and finding bugs for your specific setup is also not too difficult. I'm not saying the existing MS/extra and MS2/Extra code is perfect or well constructed, far from it, but there are reasons for some of it and overall, it works. The fact that there are bugs is somewhat normal due to the amount of options and the difficulty of testing all possible combinations.

And having people answer you as if you were a complete dummy (which I think you're exaggerating) is due to the fact that there are a lot of people on the forum who don't understand a thing about coding and about a lot of other things so going for the lowest common denominator type of answer is usually the quickest way of handling a question.

As for the code, I don't think anyone is claiming that the code is solid as a rock due to what I mentioned above. And the developers are open to suggestions and bug corrections (but they need correct feedback which is not always the case).

I don't like politics either but this type of post does nothing to help and just tries to belittle what has been done. If you don't like it, just complete the FreeEMS code and get your own perfect code going.

And I also don't have access to MS3 code and while I'm not thrilled about it, I do understand the reasoning behind it. And they are entitled to do whatever they want in whatever way they choose, so I'll just wait for their decision to release the code or not and if I'm not satisfied with the wait, I can just make my own.

I don't want to preach or prevent anyone from giving their opinion or criticizing but I don't like MS-bashing (or any other bashing). There are things I don't like about MS but they're not going to change and I can live with them (or complain privately). If you can't live with those then just complete the FreeEMS code (or start another one) and correct everything you think is wrong. Until then you only have yourself to blame if you're not satisfied.

Jean

[EssEss]

And they are entitled to do whatever they want in whatever way they choose

yep - thats why I asked. I get the feeling you think I'm demanding them to show code .. not the case.

I don't like politics either but this type of post does nothing to help and just tries to belittle what has been done. If you don't like it, just complete the FreeEMS code and get your own perfect code going.

Unlike all the fanboys on their forum, I simply don't drink the ms kool-aid and believe its the greatest thing around. Is this what you mean by belittling ? If I'm on the wrong track, please correct me. I simply don't see any belittling at all. I don't intend on downgrading any of their accomplishements - I also don't think that automatically means they're exempt from criticism either. I'm hard on all people. I also see nothing gained by 'bottling' complaints about a product. I don't see why my complaints have less weight unless I develop a competing product that fixes, what I perceive, as shortcomings.

If you can't live with those then just complete the FreeEMS code (or start another one) and correct everything you think is wrong. Until then you only have yourself to blame if you're not satisfied.

I disagree .. if I'm paying for a product, and its closed/proprietary, then I have every right to complain. so far it appears that ms3 is proprietary. if it is closed, then I probably won't spend any time on it until its open to exploration.

As you recommend, I do have an ecu in the works. Like them, it's closed for now .. My reason is simple: until it's stable, it's not usable. I suspect and appreciate that they might also share the same the same view.

Things simply look promising with this gen. Having the skills I have, I prefer to fix and explore than complain . Even if there's nothing wrong, I'd like to explore it if they open up the source.

am I way off here? your thoughts?

[jbelanger]

And they are entitled to do whatever they want in whatever way they choose

yep - thats why I asked. I get the feeling you think I'm demanding them to show code .. not the case.

No, just stating my opinion on this.

I don't like politics either but this type of post does nothing to help and just tries to belittle what has been done. If you don't like it, just complete the FreeEMS code and get your own perfect code going.

Unlike all the fanboys on their forum, I simply don't drink the ms kool-aid and believe its the greatest thing around. Is this what you mean by belittling ? If I'm on the wrong track, please correct me. I simply don't see any belittling at all. I don't intend on downgrading any of their accomplishements - I also don't think that automatically means they're exempt from criticism either. I'm hard on all people. I also see nothing gained by 'bottling' complaints about a product. I don't see why my complaints have less weight unless I develop a competing product that fixes, what I perceive, as shortcomings.

Well mentioning that the code is subpar and that all your problems with MS1 were related to firmware (not exactly what you said but you seem to imply it) is not a very high praise. Moreover, linking MS1 code to MS3 code is at best stretching the links. First there has been new developers involved since the MS1 and MS2/Extra has very little to do with MS1 other than one developer and some concepts. And neither you or I can say anything about the quality of the MS3 code since it's not public (even though you can have an idea about some of it through code ported between the two but MS3 doesn't have to live with structure, or lack of it, inherited from the original code).

As for the kool-aid, I think that very few of those who have been involve with MS for a while believe it's the greatest thing. All versions have shortcomings for some applications and it requires quite a bit of learning and it carries some history with some good and bad consequences. So for some, it's still better than anything else while for others, it's never going to be the right solution. But there must be reasons why it is successful (and the extra firmware (either MS1 or MS2) is a big part of it).

And I'm not disputing your right to criticize but just putting down the code and/or the developers is not constructive. So if you can't be constructive with your statements be constructive by providing an alternative. We can all complain without proposing solutions, and I've done it and will certainly do it again, but if you do contribute something (either competing or improving the existing stuff) then I do think your complaints have more weight.

If you can't live with those then just complete the FreeEMS code (or start another one) and correct everything you think is wrong. Until then you only have yourself to blame if you're not satisfied.

I disagree .. if I'm paying for a product, and its closed/proprietary, then I have every right to complain. so far it appears that ms3 is proprietary. if it is closed, then I probably won't spend any time on it until its open to exploration.

It's not yet out of beta testing and fully available so you're not paying for a product. So it's a bit premature to complain in my opinion. But your last statement is totally fair.

As you recommend, I do have an ecu in the works. Like them, it's closed for now .. My reason is simple: until it's stable, it's not usable. I suspect and appreciate that they might also share the same the same view.

Things simply look promising with this gen. Having the skills I have, I prefer to fix and explore than complain . Even if there's nothing wrong, I'd like to explore it if they open up the source.

am I way off here? your thoughts?

I must say that I'd like to explore the code also but I'm in the same situation as everyone else. And I'm sure that quite a few people could contribute one way or another, myself included, but I also understand why it's kept closed. Part of it is similar to your thinking but part of it is that some people will simply just take the code and use it for their own profit. And those are not the ones who would contribute in any way.

And by the way, one way to get your code stable and usable is by making it public so that others can contribute. Aren't you asking for what you don't think is good in your case?

Jean

[EssEss]

Moreover, linking MS1 code to MS3 code is at best stretching the links.

since I've never seen the ms3 code, I'll never know.

As for the kool-aid, I think that very few of those who have been involve with MS for a while believe it's the greatest thing.

my only insight into the ms world is through their forum .. I can't think of a time where I saw anyone critical of code or hw, only praise. But, as said before, I also don't follow too closely. I've also worked with commercial ecu's - so 'the bar' is always high for my frame of reference.

And by the way, one way to get your code stable and usable is by making it public so that others can contribute. Aren't you asking for what you don't think is good in your case?

without a doubt!