View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:52 pm



Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Help with non-EMS EFI programming 
Author Message
TO92 - Vaguely active

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:42 am
Posts: 3
I have installed an Ecotrons EFi kit on my Ninja 250. I know this isn't the exact forum for this type of ECU, but nevertheless, its clear that there are several EFI experts here that might be able to help me. I'm not getting much help from the manufacturer.

Its been anything but straightforward. I have been working on it off and on since about 2011. I have most of the physical problems solved, however, that leaves me with a motorcycle that has a surging idle to the point where it stalls when warm. I disconnected the O2 sensors and it runs better, but the problem is still there.

The bike seems to run mostly OK until it gets warm. According to the log, the surging idle corresponded exactly with the startup of the O2 sensors (they don't work until the engine warms them up) which is why I unplugged them.

I need to be able to adjust the tables to stop the surging problem. If it had carbs, I would assume it was too lean, but the efi doesn't always work the same way. According to the log, it appears that the idle decays, then the ecu bumps the spark advance, then the idle resumes, and the cycle repeats.

I know there aren't too many ecotrons ecocal experts here, but anything to get me in the general direction would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:58 am
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm
Posts: 14556
Location: Home sweet home!
n4mwd wrote:
I have installed an Ecotrons EFi kit on my Ninja 250. I know this isn't the exact forum for this type of ECU, but nevertheless, its clear that there are several EFI experts here that might be able to help me.

You're welcome to ask. Perhaps someone will come out of the woodwork.

n4mwd wrote:
I'm not getting much help from the manufacturer.

You're probably not getting much honesty out of them, either. Would pay to read the entirety of this: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1033

n4mwd wrote:
The bike seems to run mostly OK until it gets warm. According to the log, the surging idle corresponded exactly with the startup of the O2 sensors (they don't work until the engine warms them up) which is why I unplugged them.

Does it suddenly lean out? What do you see in the logs AFR wise? Sounds like it's open loop and then goes closed loop at which point you get instability.

n4mwd wrote:
According to the log, it appears that the idle decays, then the ecu bumps the spark advance, then the idle resumes, and the cycle repeats.

Why is it decaying? And why is the extra advance that it dials in not maintained?

n4mwd wrote:
I know there aren't too many ecotrons ecocal experts here, but anything to get me in the general direction would be appreciated.

Good luck! I pity you having traded with them at all. I've occasionally looked at their small engine physical hardware, but always been put off by the sheer fraudulent behaviour of them in the above thread. I'd love to run a really small engine with FreeEMS, but to do that requires a bunch of really small fueling components, and they're hard to come by.

Fred.

_________________
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:14 am
Profile WWW
TO92 - Vaguely active

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:42 am
Posts: 3
Fred wrote:
You're probably not getting much honesty out of them, either. Would pay to read the entirety of this: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1033


Yes, I did skim through it. Same kind of stuff that is on the Ninja forums. I have had words with Matt in the past and now it seems that he has gone into hiding and doesn't reply to emails. I wont lie and say that he has never helped at all, but I have never gotten this thing to work properly either. The last time I emailed him, a girl in china replied back and said that tech support now costs $250. So I am definitely not a happy customer right now and wished that I had never bought the thing.

But in defense of my foolishness, the uniqueness of the Ninja make other EFI solutions difficult. I have researched other controllers and while I don't pretend to be an expert, it appears that the Ninja uses a unique VRS flywheel tab pattern that is not found on cars. Seems like most of the car designs are basically a gear with a missing tooth and many have some sort of camshaft sensor in addition to the crank. The Ninja has a large tab (about 15 degrees) followed by three evenly spaced small tabs. So the VRS needs to see the big tab plus a small tab, or three small tabs, in order to know where the crank is at.

There is no cam sensor in the Ninja. So the OEM spark ignitor circuit simply uses a waste spark. However, the EFI ecu doesn't have that luxury and must use the MAP sensor to know which half of the 4 strokes its currently on.

That said, the ecotrons ecu has all of that already figured in.

fred wrote:
Does it suddenly lean out? What do you see in the logs AFR wise? Sounds like it's open loop and then goes closed loop at which point you get instability.


I suspect that it does suddenly lean out. In the Wintertime (I live in FL so that means when the temp is less than 70F) I don't seem to have the problem no matter how long I ride the bike. However, now that the weather is warming up, the bike starts acting up when it gets warm. The engine was worse before I unplugged the O2 sensors and forced it to stay in open loop, but the problem is still there, just not as bad.

fred wrote:
Why is it decaying? And why is the extra advance that it dials in not maintained?

Decay, I mean RPM goes lower. I don't know why the advance wont keep it up.

fred wrote:
Good luck! I pity you having traded with them at all. I've occasionally looked at their small engine physical hardware, but always been put off by the sheer fraudulent behaviour of them in the above thread. I'd love to run a really small engine with FreeEMS, but to do that requires a bunch of really small fueling components, and they're hard to come by.


I can totally understand the need for an EFI system for a Motorcycle or scooter, but I'm totally lost as to why anyone would want to add it to their lawnmower. I don't actually know this, but strongly suspect, that many of his components are actually designed for the model aircraft people. I have never been able to prove that.

One of the main problems with adding EFI to small engines, including the Ninja 250, which is only 40HP at the crank, is that the electrical system is not designed to output the current required to run the fuel pump. And running O2 sensor heaters is total insanity. He did a fairly good job finding a fuel pump that has a tolerable current draw, but it still is a lot. My bike runs at a power deficit when at idle with the brakes on. The headlight on Motorcycles run all the time and that is several amps right there.

As far as the AFR curves, I'm going to attach a screen cap of a log file. Hopefully it will come through. Ironically, I just noticed that the battery voltage is fluctuating with the idle. And I did read somewhere in his specs that he alters the advance with the battery voltage. Maybe that has something to do with it. I may try a little experiment with a battery charger and see if it makes a difference. But even still, after a ride at high RPM, the battery should be charged. The problem seems worse after I ride it a while and then come to a stop - such as a red light.

Thanks for the advice.


Attachments:
Log.gif
Log.gif [ 15.38 KiB | Viewed 990 times ]
Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:50 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm
Posts: 14556
Location: Home sweet home!
Any further luck? I might draw on your experience at some point as there is a different 250 that I want to run with FreeEMS :-)

_________________
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:12 am
Profile WWW
TO92 - Vaguely active

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:42 am
Posts: 3
No real luck yet. Its been a long time since I posted so I'm not sure if I said this or not, but I disconnected the O2 sensors and it did run a bit better. However, the gas mileage was really bad after that.

I am starting to think the problem is in fuel delivery. I have been trying multiple locations for the fuel pump and so far, none are ideal. The problem is that the pump must be oriented downward and below the tank in order to avoid cavitation. On a motorcycle, there just isn't any room to play around with. Factory EFI bikes always put the pump inside the tank, but that isn't an option with this bike.

I suspect that the pump is getting hot from the engine heat and causing some of the fuel to vaporize. This is why, in theory, it runs worse when warm.


Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:21 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 5 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: toalan and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF. ColorizeIt.