Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

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ababkin
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Re: Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

Post by ababkin »

Fred wrote:Linux on PS2, XBOX, different firmware on your DSL router, etc, there is nothing any of them can do to stop you, it is your physical property to use as you wish.

Fred.
ok, and what about "this hardware is not to be used as a part of the bigger non-B&G design" ?
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thebigmacd
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Re: Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

Post by thebigmacd »

ababkin wrote:
Fred wrote:Linux on PS2, XBOX, different firmware on your DSL router, etc, there is nothing any of them can do to stop you, it is your physical property to use as you wish.

Fred.
ok, and what about "this hardware is not to be used as a part of the bigger non-B&G design" ?
I'm pretty sure that what Fred said answers this question. Do you have to sign a contract agreeing to the above to purchase a B&G board? Nope. Can you resell it without their permission? Yes. Doctrine of first sale.

Let me give an example: Company A sells a gearbox on the open market, and markets it as a "snow blower drive gearbox". Company A holds patents on the inner workings of the gearbox, which are somehow superior to other designs. Company B purchases the completed product in bulk and uses it in a grain mixer. Company A has no right to tell Company B what they can and cannot use the gearbox in, unless Company A has a specific patent on "using a gearbox in a grain mixer".

B&G sells a completed product on the open market. It is sold retail. Another company can take the hardware they paid for and use it in their product.

B&G can only stop them if B&G holds an all-encompassing patent on using a digital control system to run an engine (yeah, right, talk about prior art!). Even though B&G may hold patents on the processes that their board performs, they STILL can't stop anyone from using those processes, as they have exercised the right that their patent protects...the right to manufacture and sell a product that performs the claims of the patent. How said product is incorporated into other designs is out of their hands as they have sold it on the open market.

Edit: The above is the whole point of patents...to protect B&Gs right to design and manufacture a specific product that performs a process that they have patented. They can then sell it at a profit so other people can use the functionality. It makes no sense that they would be able to tell anyone when and how they can use the results of the process that the product performs.
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ababkin
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Re: Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

Post by ababkin »

yea, we've chatted a bit with Fred and he's convinced me. I was just being prudent.
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MotoFab
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Re: Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

Post by MotoFab »

ababkin wrote:Despite your hyperbolas, i don't think this really answers my concerns

I think Bruce (was it?) was already quoted here: something along the lines of "Our lawyers are better than yours" - that should pretty much summarize their stand.: i.e they will sue if they can (or at least, if it makes sense financially)
Often the lawsuit "makes sense financially" in all cases. Because often the desired effect of the suit is to create a financial burden on the other guy. It doesn't take much to do that. A use-over-and-over fill-in-the-blank complaint drafted by an attorney, and filed at court by Company A, can cost Company B a $5000 legal bill merely to answer the complaint. That's sort of the minimum bet.

I've been to court a few times concerning companies making a pcb with parts connected in the same way as another board made by another company. Both as a professional witness and as a cross-complainant.

Court rulings follow the way of well-settled case law. Which is, that commonly available components used on a circuit board, and how they are connected, enjoy no copyright protection. Except by express agreement between parties that is.

- - - -

B&G offer such an "express agreement between parties" for their products. The terms of the agreement are very reasonable, and consistent with typical royalty payments that might be awarded from patent infringement say.

An agreement is between parties, therefore an agreement cannot be one-sided. A notice or sign or statement saying to do or not do this or that, doesn't comprise an agreement between parties.

I'm not trying to make a joke, but a one-sided statement like that has the same legal affect as "Do not remove this label from this mattress under penalty of law."

Now that doesn't mean that Company A cannot take Company B to court to attempt to prove some type of protection. While not legally successful it serves to cause a financial burden on Company B.

And that's no joke.



- - - -

Why is creating a circuit layout that is similar or the same as another circuit layout not infringement? Because components only work when they are connected together in a way that they will function normally. A company cannot have protection based on the idea that "We connected these parts together so that they will work, and no one else from now on may do that."

And because any particular way to lay out components that you can possibly think of is printed in a component databook or application note.

And if you think of something that you think no one has thought of, and it is 'unobvious to an expert in the field', then maybe you can get a patent. Which itself isn't actually protection, it is merely the right to file a legal claim asking for protection. Should the court rule in your favor, then you have protection.

- - - -

You gotta know that connecting a transistor to a resistor isn't unobvious to an expert, and as such doesn't enjoy protection.

You also gotta know that it costs more money than you and I have to fight legal battles.

- - - -

Should you make a layout that runs MS code? I don't know, that's a tricky question. I mean, if you connect power to a Freescale chip it will run MS code won't it. So you better not even connect power to it.

Heh heh.

- Jim


p.s.: This isn't a promotion, but B&G offer an agreement to manufacture products with similar circuit connections to their products. The terms of the agreement are very reasonable, and consistent with typical royalty payments that might be awarded from patent infringement say.

Now, as fair and reasonable as the agreement is, the agreement isn't so much a 'right to manufacture' as it is as agreement not to sue you if you pay fair and reasonable royalties.

I am not saying anything bad about B&G, I am repeating an assessment from an attorney. And it only cost me the price of a cup of coffee. Anything more than that and a fella has to ante up.

You place your bet and you takes your chances I guess. Like anything else.
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Re: Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

Post by Fred »

Just as MTech can't be touched in the UK, neither can I. Of course, I don't *want* to infringe their stuff. I want to build something better and different and allow others the freedom to change it port it and do as they please with it. For now all I ask is that people (including Alex!!) focus on getting ONE out successfully based on the hcs12xdp512 before embarking on flights of fancy with dsp/psoc/avr/fpga based stuff etc. Anyway, what we are doing IS ground up, and totally from scratch in hardware and software so there is absolutely nothing that can be done. Especially when I have been careful to show where I obtained various bits of information from. Incremental public development with everything exposed from day one.

Of course, I repeat, I'm in the UK, and will later be in NZ, and can't be touched in either place by bizarre American legal semantics.

Fred.
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MotoFab
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Re: Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

Post by MotoFab »

Fred wrote:Of course, I repeat, I'm in the UK, and will later be in NZ, and can't be touched in either place by bizarre American legal semantics.
Exactly :lol:

You have nothing to worry about legally Fred. But a going-nowhere legal battle is still a financial burden, which has the same effect on a small company. I sure don't like that that's such a substantial portion of our civil law.

- JIm
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