Another MS2 clone AND JAW clone :-(

[Fred]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term IP?

What they are doing is selling hardware that is totally useless without firmware that has a specific limitation on it to only be used on hardware designed by B&G. Whether it is legally OK or not (perhaps the responsibility comes down to the user who loads the code? if so, impossible to sue...) it seems to me to be morally wrong.

Given that he appears to be in Germany, I'd say that he can't be sued at all. Much like MTech with their clones of ms stuff here in the UK. If I thought it was OK, then I'd have started this site by porting ms2e to the new core and gone from there. Other than my dislike of the MS2 code base, I think it is wrong to do that whether the law offers protection or not.

And, yes, I'm aware that only some B&G firmware contains such restrictions and that the rest are really just an external suggestion after the fact. Still though... that is their wish, and it should be respected IMO. (whether I like them or not)

Fred.

[Fred]

I forgot to correct that before I posted. To be honest, my original post underwent 5 complete rewrites before I hit submit ;)

Legend! Thank you very much for the "think then post" mentality :-) I very much appreciate it.

Fred.

[MotoFab]

Re: IP, there are some fancy legal remedies available that are only possible because of the Internet.

For instance, it isn't easy to sue the foreign company for manufacturing. But the companies responsible for delivery of the foreign web page which contains marketing for the copied domestic product can be stopped from displaying marketing web pages to the domestic country, and also to any countries with trade agreements which respect each other's legal protection.

-Jim

[AbeFM]

For instance, it isn't easy to sue the foreign company for manufacturing. But the companies responsible for delivery of the foreign web page which contains marketing for the copied domestic product can be stopped from displaying marketing web pages to the domestic country, and also to any countries with trade agreements which respect each other's legal protection.

Heh... That's interesting.

I just want to know more about their board. In some ways, it just looks like a low cost integrated board with MS-II, GPIO, and JAW support all built in. Kinda seems pretty awesome, if it all works. I don't see a way to get heat off those chips, but...

Oh, and if you look around, they have an MS-I board (discounted since they are handbuilt with rework), about the same size, but they are more than half protoboard area. Heh... Pretty sweet.

I'll admit I'm not in love with their ripping off (legally defensible or not) B&G on this one, but on the other hand, it's a much better hardware solution (could be, anyway) than the current B&G offering. And there are folks who can do hardware but suck at software, so if they wrote their own it would be a huge disservice to their customer base. Even you, Fred, have mentioned running your code on B&G hardware to get it out there, etc... Because of the inherent differences between sw and hw.

It's a product I can certainly see the use for - I wonder what B&G's stand on it is?

[ababkin]

I wonder what B&G's stand on it is?

i think Bruce (was it?) was already quoted here: something along the lines of "Our lawyers are better than yours" - that should pretty much summarize their stand.: i.e they will sue if they can (or at least, if it makes sense financially)

[Fred]

Yes, I've mentioned it for multiple reasons.

One, to give ms hardware owners an alternative that has code that can be read and modified without driving Abe and his mates to tears.
Two, to gain access to a large base of existing installs for testing purposes before committing to a design of our own.

And of course, the side effect is that such products like this one suddenly become totally legitimate because they are designed to run my GPL code and not the B&G code. In effect opening up B&G to legit competition without explicitly saying "this can run B&G code". They can just say "this can run FreeEMS-MS2 and compatible code" and at that point they are still being dodgy IF they don't actually intend customers to use our/my code, but they are safe from any legal stuff as only the pin out needs to be shared between the two and that is open slather as far as I can discern.

Fred.

[ababkin]

^^ wholeheartedly agree on this

...but, what prevents them from changing the license to their HW? Something along the lines of "this hardware is not to be used as a part of the bigger non-B&G design" or "no other firmware other than B&G-approved, may be ran on wholly or partially B&G hardware"

this would piss off a lot off people and they may loose some of their customer base in process, but they still could do this, no?

[Fred]

No, they can't do that at all. They sell a chunk of fibreglass and some silicon wafer. You can use it to run their code, prop up your house, stir you tomato soup, lubricate your tyres during a burnout, or run my code. It is as much their business as it is AsusTek's that I run Linux on my laptop, IE, NONE :-)

Fred.

[ababkin]

No, they can't do that at all. They sell a chunk of fibreglass and some silicon wafer. You can use it to run their code, prop up your house, stir you tomato soup, lubricate your tyres during a burnout, or run my code. It is as much their business as it is AsusTek's that I run Linux on my laptop, IE, NONE

Fred.

despite your hyperbolas, i don't think this really answers my concerns

[Fred]

Linux on PS2, XBOX, different firmware on your DSL router, etc, there is nothing any of them can do to stop you, it is your physical property to use as you wish.

Fred.