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Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy 
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QFP80 - Contributor
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Hentai wrote:
I would "suspect" it has to with the point of the ADV, being for pre turbo applications. I've seen one in a oem car. Also I believe the design tolerates higher temps than the 4.9 and 4.2 does. It would surprise me in order to meet the goals it was setup for that was one of the penalties it had to take.


There are 2 distinct versions of the LSU ADV, the normal "LSU ADV" and the "LSU ADV preTurbo" one. They have different part numbers and slightly different specs. Its not safe to assume that all ADV sensors are preTurbo ADV's. And the max allowable back pressure for both the ADV's and the 4.9 is 2.5 bar, so the ADV preTurbo is not rated for any higher pressure capability than the 4.9.

Here are the temp and back pressure specs for the 4.2, 4.9, ADV and ADV preTurbo sensors.
Attachment:
Bosch temp specs.png
Bosch temp specs.png [ 14.56 KiB | Viewed 632 times ]

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1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.


Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:11 pm
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There's an interesting post at the end of the previous page which I didn't authorise quickly enough, FYI.

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Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:49 pm
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QFP80 - Contributor
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jalai wrote:
Interesting, I have LSU4.9 document where is this pressure comp. curve.
Image

Also, Bosch MS6.x ECU software has correction like this.
Image


That is really interesting and doesn't jive with the document I have.

It looks like one of the pre-release spec sheets that were floating around.
Look at the attached 4.9 Bosch sheet dated July, 13, 2007 and the fact that it is listed as the First Edition, yet it is dated 2 years later than yours.
Looks like even Bosch isn't sure what the correction should be!

Attachment:
TCI_LSU4_9 sensor 2 16 10.pdf [257.17 KiB]
Downloaded 53 times

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1969 Plymouth Satellite Wagon with a 440 & TF727
1929 Ford Roadster with a 2JZ and a T400, GT47, 1,100WHP, 240+ MPH
1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.


Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:29 pm
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TO220 - Visibile

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:27 am
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I'm actually curious on the data of the LSU 4.9 and LSU 4.9 ADV is the ADV (non pre-turbo) a more robust sensor? I tried googling but the only info I could find was the ecotrons alm lsu adv wideband O2.

Anyone have any experience with the ecotrons alm lsu advanced box?

See link for info: http://www.ecotrons.com/products/alm-lsu-adv/


Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:39 am
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Ecotrons experience, and not a positive one: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1033

Cliff notes: Pretending to be a customer reviewing their own product, three usernames registered in the same thread, general dishonesty left right and centre.

Ecotrons has offices in North America, but is run out of South East Asia, with the North American offices merely being a facade for marketing. Or at least, this is how it was.

Steer clear!

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DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:26 am
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TO220 - Visibile

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That's not good. Don't want to buy any product from anyone that is not honest in their business dealings.


Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:37 am
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Fred wrote:
Ecotrons experience, and not a positive one: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1033

Cliff notes: Pretending to be a customer reviewing their own product, three usernames registered in the same thread, general dishonesty left right and centre.

Ecotrons has offices in North America, but is run out of South East Asia, with the North American offices merely being a facade for marketing. Or at least, this is how it was.

Steer clear!


Yeah I read all that before signing up, but I've had my ALM units for over 12 months now and haven't had any problems with any of them.

I know for sure the parts come direct out of China, and it's a bit off getting emails back from them with different English\Caucasian names, like John, Bill, Murray.

I forgot to add on that I also have the Dual Haltech WB unit fitted in my dad's drag car (twin turbo 6.8lt ls3) which I have wired the analog out wires of the haltech in to the factory ecu using the Aircon & EGR 0-5v analog signal wires.

In my own drag car (similar to my dads) I've still got a couple of mtx-l's, which I really want to replace with some new 4.9 controllers.


Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:38 am
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QFP80 - Contributor
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Daemos wrote:
I'm actually curious on the data of the LSU 4.9 and LSU 4.9 ADV is the ADV (non pre-turbo) a more robust sensor?

Just to be clear, the ADV is not a 4.9 sensor, its not the 4.9 ADV, its just the ADV. It is not compatible with a controller set up for the 4.9.

The ADV-preTurbo version uses an inconel protection tube where the normal ADV and the 4.9 and the 4.2 do not. That is why the ADV-preTurbo can live in a higher EGT environment. The ceramic appears (at least from the spec sheet) to be identical between the ADV and the ADV-preTurbo. this is why the 250 hour max EGT limit is the same for the ADV and the ADV preTurbo sensors.

When I spoke to our Bosch contact and we discussed the basic ADV he was really surprised we were interested in it and said the only reason anyone should care about it was for the fast light-off time and that was what they considered the big improvement over the 4.9. The OEM's really want this to get cold start emissions under control as fast as possible. If the super high temp limit is a concern then the ADV-preTurbo would be an option.

But, keep this point in mind:

The Bosch 4.2, 4.9 and ADV are all rated for a continuous EGT of 930C, which is ~1,700F.
And all three are also rated for up to 250 hours of 1030C, which is 1,886 F!!!!

Could your engine produce EGT's that high, for that long and survive? do you need the extra temp range?

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1969 Plymouth Satellite Wagon with a 440 & TF727
1929 Ford Roadster with a 2JZ and a T400, GT47, 1,100WHP, 240+ MPH
1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.


Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:46 pm
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LQFP112 - Up with the play

Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:10 am
Posts: 108
Quote:
Based on the compenstation curve given with the AFM1000
.8 at 4psi would be around .8229
or
11.648 would be 11.98

Not nearly the 16%, but of course this is linearized curve.

...


The only linear relationship to quote a % number about is oxygen% vs. calibrated current. And, that, has been measured as +4%/psi. Once you convert that to lambda, it will vary as you move away from 1.00. 11.98 vs 11.65 is already off by ~3% lambda at just 4psi. Which is already worse than the uncorrected Bosch.

This is easy to verify with just a bottle of compressed test gas, a hose, and a pressure gauge. NTK rates their calibration point at 16% O2. If you apply 16.0% o2 gas at 2psi it will read 17.28% o2, etc. You need to apply the correction to get back to 16.0% Try the same on a LSU4.9 and you get about 16.3%

My point was, the NTK sensors are NOT more accurate than the Bosch sensors, in actual use, UNLESS you have an exhaust gas pressure sensor and are applying the correction formula. Because the Bosch sensors have 1/4 of the pressure sensitivity, as compared to the NTKs.

Quote:
I have a turbine inlet pressure sensor to the datalogger with the o2 sensors.


Then it may work for you in steady-state reading. But, for those without a pressure compensation setup, the NTKs are a poor choice, if accuracy is what is most important.


Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:05 am
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LQFP112 - Up with the play

Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:10 am
Posts: 108
Quote:
I'm actually curious on the data of the LSU 4.9 and LSU 4.9 ADV is the ADV (non pre-turbo) a more robust sensor?


The ADV, according to the datasheet's warm-up procedure, is MUCH more resistant to thermal shock damage. This is why it can heat up as fast as it does. But, it seems to pay a price in other respects.

This might be a good sensor for Innovate to use :)


Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:10 am
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