Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Discuss MegaSquirt, VEMS and other non-free hardware and software here.
HelmutVonAutobahn
LQFP112 - Up with the play
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:10 am

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by HelmutVonAutobahn »

Can't we all just get along? :P

I feel kinda responsible for this mess, now :(

Unfortunately, I broke down my setup to use the solenoid for something else. It was a much simpler rig than DelSolid's. Just a single gas ( CO2 in N2 ) With a regulator (1lpm) and solenoid. Then, a tube running into one of those Innovate heatsink bungs, fitted with #10 barb fittings. I would let the sensor settle in at ambient air, then, trigger the solenoid with the CO2 mix. Times from the solenoid pick to about lambda 1.2 were around 30ms. Then, lambda 1.2 to 1.0 was about another 6ms ( on the DAC). I do not know how much latency was built into the solenoid and tubing. I had always assumed about 30ms. But, obviously, it is less than that. So, I was getting ~35ms

On the trace that I posted, there is a bit more info than the slew rate of the DAC. The DAC slew rate would be the changes between the 2ms update steps. What was impressive was what happened with the steps as the value approached lambda 1.0 Usually, with that steep of a slope, one would expect overshoot/ringing. Or, to have it "round off" and taper towards its final value, from over-damping.

for #1. The 61.9ohm resistor is just a current shunt. Taking a differential voltage reading across it gives the normalized pump current ( it is in series with the pump cell ). The resistor is not limiting the current. The current would be the same without it. You just wouldn't know what it was.

#2. The max current values are sustained values, with a couple of caveats. Mostly they are worried about the voltage across the pump cell. If the potential is greater than about 1.2v ( IIRC ) the pump cell will start to eat itself ( binding potential of the ZrO2 or catalyst material ). That happens long before any self-heating damage. For the same reason, the test gas MUST have an oxygen component that will disassociate at a lower potential than the ZrO2 or the pump cell will eat itself to get at that oxygen. i.e. you can't run it on straight Nitrogen, for example. That said, even repeated peaks will do cumulative damage to the pump cell. The limits are not symmetrical because it's a cell. i.e. it has its own voltage/polarity that must be accounted for.

For all the consternation, it really does seem to do what it says it does. 35ms from free-air to Lambda 1.0 is better than 20ms t63. And, that includes the test rig latency. A real world test would be to set it up on an engine and pull an injector wire. Then, look for the lean spots at an RPM/2 repeating rate.

Poking around the signals, it looks like they ARE using a controlled current source. But, not in any normal way. The red (pump) wire is always at 2.5v. The orange wire has a 1kHz square-wave signal on it. So does the black wire. The green wire seems to not be connected to anything except at the sensor connector. And, like I mentioned before, the heater wires have a DC voltage of around 8v.

Usually, the orange wire is 2.5v. The pump current is applied to the green wire. And the 61.9ohm resistor goes across the green and red wires to measure the current.

If they are using a constant current source, they already know what the current is. So, no shunt resistor. fine. PWM driving the pump cell? Ok. But, what is to be gained by driving it from the "wrong" end ?
Attachments
test_rig_partial.jpg
toalan
Wideband Wizard
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:53 am
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by toalan »

Fred wrote:1) Hmm, I must be thinking about the pump cell all together wrongly, then. I was assuming it had some sort of impedance/resistance and that the ratio of 62 to that would define how much more current you got for your Voltage, however I've not read up on the details of these things at all, so excuse my blissful ignorance on the topic. A concise disertation on the functional style of that aspect is welcome, or a link to lmfgtfy :-)

2) Agreed re peak in lieu of more info. About the mean, you'd have to do an absolute value on the numbers to get a meaningful load value, something like RMS for audio power. That however would not let you differentiate positive and negative as they do in the sheet. Just thinking out loud here.

DelSolid, your 2c? HelmutVonAutobahn, your 2c? Alan, a further 2c?
1) I screwed up in my post, for some reason I thought the 62 ohm reason was inline with the pump cell, it is not. The 62 ohms has no impact on the available voltage to drive the pump cell. My bad.
toalan
Wideband Wizard
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:53 am
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by toalan »

If Delsolid will accept my apology then, I apologize for posts made after; Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:13 am, I still stand by the; Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:13 am post, and prior.
toalan
Wideband Wizard
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:53 am
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by toalan »

HelmutVonAutobahn wrote:Can't we all just get along? :P


Poking around the signals, it looks like they ARE using a controlled current source. But, not in any normal way. The red (pump) wire is always at 2.5v. The orange wire has a 1kHz square-wave signal on it. So does the black wire. The green wire seems to not be connected to anything except at the sensor connector. And, like I mentioned before, the heater wires have a DC voltage of around 8v.

Usually, the orange wire is 2.5v. The pump current is applied to the green wire. And the 61.9ohm resistor goes across the green and red wires to measure the current.

If they are using a constant current source, they already know what the current is. So, no shunt resistor. fine. PWM driving the pump cell? Ok. But, what is to be gained by driving it from the "wrong" end ?
Can you please clarify the voltages and signals with the wire color? Are you talking about the wire color on the bosch sensor or some cable that connects to the sensor? There is no orange wire on the bosch 17025, do you mean yellow wire?
User avatar
Fred
Moderator
Posts: 15433
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm
Location: Home sweet home!
Contact:

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by Fred »

HelmutVonAutobahn wrote:A real world test would be to set it up on an engine and pull an injector wire. Then, look for the lean spots at an RPM/2 repeating rate.
Thanks for your post and explanations. I was going to reply saying what a bad test this was, however then I re read it and saw what you were saying. This wouldn't give you a number, it would give you a "can it see the pulse this short", maybe. On the other hand, there would be a fair bit of mixing so you might see it somewhat smoothed out at the sensor tip anyway. Interesting experiment. Similar to this, I was playing around with an injector unclipped on my Suzuki the other day and was surprised that I could *hear* the turbo speed pulsing under certain condition (difficult under others). The turbo is the size of the palm of your hand, though. I doubt my Holset would do the same :-D

Random other thought: Every time I see DelSolid's username I think of this:

Image
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!
User avatar
DelSolid
QFP80 - Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by DelSolid »

toalan wrote:If Delsolid will accept my apology then, I apologize for posts made after; Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:13 am, I still stand by the; Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:13 am post, and prior.
Apology accepted. But the time for the posts are local user based so I don't know exactly what posts you are standing by. But I will state again that we do blow through the sensor end on our test rig and that would not be an acceptable in-service mounting setup for sensor reliability, moisture and contamination reasons. We are upfront about this and even included a picture of the rig. I have lots of test data with our conventional multi-sensor side blow chamber that makes me completely confident in the response times but the side blow rig is not as repeatable. I am going to draw up a small chamber side blow adapter and then run some tests with it to compare it to the end blow unit, but I think that issue is less in question now in light of HelmutVonAutobahn's post.
1969 Plymouth Satellite Wagon with a 440 & TF727
1929 Ford Roadster with a 2JZ and a T400, GT47, 1,100WHP, 240+ MPH
1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.
User avatar
DelSolid
QFP80 - Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by DelSolid »

HelmutVonAutobahn wrote:I feel kinda responsible for this mess, now :(
It is totally your fault. Thanks for recognizing it! (j/k) :D In truth, the only reason I registered on this forum was because I saw your post and your lament that the CAN bus update rate was only 100hz. and I figured I would offer to up that for you on a 1-off basis. That message speed was chosen because many of our beta testers use one per cylinder and any more than 100hz would kill the bus. If a unit were being used in isolation you can demand a lot more of the bus capacity.
HelmutVonAutobahn wrote: For all the consternation, it really does seem to do what it says it does. 35ms from free-air to Lambda 1.0 is better than 20ms t63. And, that includes the test rig latency. A real world test would be to set it up on an engine and pull an injector wire. Then, look for the lean spots at an RPM/2 repeating rate.
I actually have some really interesting data showing just that type of test. Another good one is shift cut data and the response of the O2 sensor to that. I have to dig around but when I find it I will post it.
HelmutVonAutobahn wrote: Poking around the signals, it looks like they ARE using a controlled current source. But, not in any normal way. The red (pump) wire is always at 2.5v. The orange wire has a 1kHz square-wave signal on it. So does the black wire. The green wire seems to not be connected to anything except at the sensor connector. And, like I mentioned before, the heater wires have a DC voltage of around 8v.
Yes, we are using a constant current source so we know exactly what current we are imposing. No, we are not exceeding the spec.

The heater is a variable voltage DC design. One of the big problems with most AFR/LAMBDA/UEGO controllers is noise induced by the PWM control of the heater. Up to 2 Amps is constantly being switched on and off which causes the ground plane to jump around and cause problems with both the measurements and analog output signals. In the new AEM unit the heater is driven by a variable DC voltage, exactly as spec'd in the sensor datasheet rather than being hit with a 12V/2A pulse train. That 12V PWM pulse train impresses on the sensor signal wires through resistive, capacitive, and inductive coupling. This is especially problematic when there is a long cable run between the controller and sensor. Using a DC signal to drive the heater removes the A/C coupling from the sensor cable run, resulting in a noticeably cleaner signal.
1969 Plymouth Satellite Wagon with a 440 & TF727
1929 Ford Roadster with a 2JZ and a T400, GT47, 1,100WHP, 240+ MPH
1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.
User avatar
DelSolid
QFP80 - Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by DelSolid »

HelmutVonAutobahn wrote: If they are using a constant current source, they already know what the current is. So, no shunt resistor. fine. PWM driving the pump cell? Ok. But, what is to be gained by driving it from the "wrong" end ?
Speed my friend, SPEEEEEEEEEED!!! :-P

Like I said earlier, you have to throw the Bosch reference design out the window when evaluating this unit. I wasn't being evasive or coy, I was being truthful. The designer of this unit (it was not me) has devised a totally unique way of driving the sensor and the "proof is in the pudding" as they say.
1969 Plymouth Satellite Wagon with a 440 & TF727
1929 Ford Roadster with a 2JZ and a T400, GT47, 1,100WHP, 240+ MPH
1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.
User avatar
DelSolid
QFP80 - Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by DelSolid »

toalan wrote:You are saying that you can fully oxidize or reduce the gas in the sample chamber in a shorter time, much much shorter than anyone else claims about their own wideband controllers, while telling me that you are not violating the current limit?
This is a good question and one that cuts right to the meat of it so I asked the designer to address it since he will say it far clearer and more accurately than I could. Here is his response;
designer wrote:Nope, Everybody pumps the same flux of ions per unit of current. 2.54ma will completely offset the diffusion influx at a partial pressure of oxygen of 0.208bar.

When there is a step change in oxygen partial pressure at the diffusion orifice, the required current to maintain equilibrium changes almost immediately.

Starting with a measurement cell at Lambda 1.0, with Lambda 1.0 gas at the diffusion orifice, the net pump current is zero to maintain the Nernst voltage at 450mv.

If there is a step change in the gas at the diffusion orifice of +0.208bar of oxygen, the instantaneous current required to maintain the measurement cell at Lambda 1.0 (450mv at Nernst cell) is 2.54ma RFN. The speed that the Nernst cell responds at (dv/dt) is related to its temperature and the resistive load that it is driving. But, it starts responding almost immediately, given the diffusion time of oxygen @650C to the surface of the Nernst cell (less than 3ms) because of Bosch’s “planar design”.

The Nernst voltage may only drop from 450mv to 445mv within 3ms. But, if your system is clean enough to resolve such a small difference, you can use a high enough effective gain to get to the proper 2.54ma pump current much sooner than others. No need to go to 6ma or more. It’s all about how high a gain you can maintain without going unstable. A straight PID loop is probably not going to cut it. DSP is required. Imagine a dynamic FIR filter that adapts to the actual diffusion/Nernst latency, for example. (Or… be like Innovate and just let it go unstable, then measure the oscillation.)
It may be hard to get your head wrapped around it but there is a reason it has been in R&D since 2011. It requires precise, fast, clean signals to operate and a unique processing environment with critical timing control. And remember that the signals clean output was also noted by Helmut in his initial review. It's not just fast, it's also clean, and that took a lot of doing.
1969 Plymouth Satellite Wagon with a 440 & TF727
1929 Ford Roadster with a 2JZ and a T400, GT47, 1,100WHP, 240+ MPH
1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.
User avatar
DelSolid
QFP80 - Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

Post by DelSolid »

HelmutVonAutobahn wrote:A real world test would be to set it up on an engine and pull an injector wire. Then, look for the lean spots at an RPM/2 repeating rate.
I have almost that exact test. But rather than pulling an injector, it is a V8 engine with an exhaust leak (broken header bolt) that is sucking air on scavenge. The lean spike in the AFR tracks the cycle speed as well as the resolution of the logged channels allows.
exhaust gasket leak.png
If someone wants the actual log file this snapshot was taken from then pm me and I will email it to you as well as access to the viewer. The forum wont allow me to upload it.
1969 Plymouth Satellite Wagon with a 440 & TF727
1929 Ford Roadster with a 2JZ and a T400, GT47, 1,100WHP, 240+ MPH
1930 Ford Roadster with a 42 Merc Flathead with triple Holley 94's. Major work in progress
I work for AEM but am not here schilling for them. Nothing I say is official.
Post Reply