Widebands That You Would or Wouldn't Buy

[toalan]

Bosch 4.9 datasheet "Y 258 E00 015e Seite/Page 3 von/of 13 Datum/Date 14.6.2005"

Max. pumping current into pump cell (Ip)
- for rich gas signal (λ≥0,65) ≥ -9 mA
- for lean gas signal (air) ≤ 6 mA

This is a link to the datasheet I have, https://www.dropbox.com/s/qqbjnryncjxrz ... t.pdf?dl=0

[DelSolid]

Bosch 4.9 datasheet "Y 258 E00 015e Seite/Page 3 von/of 13 Datum/Date 14.6.2005"

Max. pumping current into pump cell (Ip)
- for rich gas signal (λ≥0,65) ≥ -9 mA
- for lean gas signal (air) ≤ 6 mA

This is a link to the datasheet I have, https://www.dropbox.com/s/qqbjnryncjxrz ... t.pdf?dl=0

Thanks, I know where the limits come from, I was referring to your baseless assumption that a device you have never tested is probably exceeding them.

[toalan]

Do you want to know why I am assuming you are exceeding the current limit, because I push some of my product at the limit and I do not get your 20ms response time. Current is charge over time, when time shrinks current goes up.

Scope across the 61.9 ohm measurement resistor in your system and calculate the current.

[toalan]

I made a mistake in the post above,

You need to put a multimeter in line with the pump cell wire, cut the red wire on the sensor and put a multimeter between the wire, well not a multimeter but a scope with a measurement resistor as it will give you instantaneous current where as a multimeter will just give you average current.

[toalan]

I am sure many people think I am being dishonest in the same way you are but just taking the opposite side, widebands are a niche type of product and not many people know what is going on.

I knew one day I would run into someone like you on a forum, and most people who reads the posts will not know what is going on and be unable to judge who is honest and who is not, that is one of the reasons why I open sourced my SLC Free wideband controller http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/1 ... e.zip?2561

It is testament to something more than pushing my own products for personal gain.

[DelSolid]

Do you want to know why I am assuming you are exceeding the current limit, because I push some of my product at the limit and I do not get your 20ms response time. Current is charge over time, when time shrinks current goes up.

You are making wide ranging statements based on incorrect assumptions. Now you are accusing us of over driving the sensor simply because your design does "not get your 20ms response time" ??? You don't even know what our system looks like.

Scope across the 61.9 ohm measurement resistor in your system and calculate the current.

We don't have a 61.9 ohm measurement resistor in our system. See above re: incorrect assumptions on your part. Our system is not based on the Bosch reference design at all, you really need to get your head wrapped around that before we can move forward.

It is testament to something more than pushing my own products for personal gain.

Funny, only 1 of us has a link to buy his product in his signature (not me).
And only 1 of us has makes money if someone does buy their product (not me, again).

I don't own AEM (I wish ), I simply work there. If someone buys a thousand ECU's or Wide bands, I don't make a penny more. I don't own the I.P. so its not mine to give away either.

I just design some parts, tune some engines and try to make stuff I would want on my own car. Or if I see something out in the wild that I think is cool I try to get it in house and benefiting from a wide distribution net. I don't work in sales at all and could not even sell you a part if you waved money in my face. I would have to walk around and find a sales rep to take your order, but then they wouldn't do it because we do wholesale sales only, they would refer you to your local tuner to buy it.

I have been entirely up-front here, but you? well, it seems you have an issue with something that goes far beyond anything brought up in this thread.

[toalan]

I do not need to know your design. I rely on physics, the gas in a wideband sample chamber is reduced or oxidated which depends on the number of O2 ions driven into or out of the pump cell, O2 ions are driven by charge from the controller. For a fixed geometry chamber with a fixed amount of gas at a fixed pressure the amount of charge needed to oxidate or reduce the gas in the sample chamber is the same no matter what your control scheme. You are saying that you can fully oxidize or reduce the gas in the sample chamber in a shorter time, much much shorter than anyone else claims about their own wideband controllers, while telling me that you are not violating the current limit? Current is charge/time, time goes down current goes up accordingly.

[Fred]

I am half loving the conversation, and half a little disappointed in both of you over it. Can't quite decide which more yet :-)

I'm definitely interested to see the two of you swap units and do what each of you consider scientific testing and post results.

I have a few questions/observations of my own, now, though:

1) Without the resistor present any applied voltage is going to produce a lot of current compared to with the resistor.
2) Are the Bosch numbers mean or peak, and if mean, over what time frame and with what peak value? If they were mean I'd expect to see an absolute max in the sheet, so (without having read the linked sheet) if there are not abs max figures, then I'd have to assume that they are peak numbers.
3) Chill out a bit, it's great to see in-depth chatter, however both of you have been a little off IMO.

Keen to hear input from any/all of the three people who show ample confidence in this field who now frequent this thread on 1 and 2.

Fred.

[toalan]

1) Without the resistor present you gain an additional 0.125 volts of headroom to drive the pump cell, 0.7 Lambda is ~2ma so 62 ohms x 2ma = 0.125 volts, it is not a big difference. I am pretty sure there is a measurement resistor in their design, it is just probably a different value. If there is no measurement resistor then the design will use some sort of programmable current source, I think this is unlikely though.

2) The current numbers are probably peak numbers, though it is not explicitly stated that it is peak but the lack of clarification is indicative that it is peak values. The sensor can pretty much flip from lean to rich and vice versa over a short period of time, and the current direction is related to the exhaust gas being lean or rich, so theoretically you can have super high peak values but an almost 0 mean value if the engine is misfiring or doing something else silly.

[Fred]

1) Hmm, I must be thinking about the pump cell all together wrongly, then. I was assuming it had some sort of impedance/resistance and that the ratio of 62 to that would define how much more current you got for your Voltage, however I've not read up on the details of these things at all, so excuse my blissful ignorance on the topic. A concise disertation on the functional style of that aspect is welcome, or a link to lmfgtfy :-)

2) Agreed re peak in lieu of more info. About the mean, you'd have to do an absolute value on the numbers to get a meaningful load value, something like RMS for audio power. That however would not let you differentiate positive and negative as they do in the sheet. Just thinking out loud here.

DelSolid, your 2c? HelmutVonAutobahn, your 2c? Alan, a further 2c?