Where FreeEMS sits in the "market"

FreeEMS topics that aren't specific to hardware development or firmware development.
Post Reply
User avatar
Fred
Moderator
Posts: 15431
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm
Location: Home sweet home!
Contact:

Where FreeEMS sits in the "market"

Post by Fred »

AKA what FreeEMS will compete with.
Delta wrote:I'd like to think this project would take a stand at some point and say - were going to compete with Motec not MS. For the first design it doesn't matter what we do - just get it working and keep it cheap - drive an autofet directly without snubber or anything, it'll work.
Delta said this in another thread and I'd like to run through what it will and won't compete with and why.

Firstly, it's not going to compete with any existing MS product at all. It's going to thump them solidly into the back seat for anything other than a hobby "just for fun" solution.

FreeEMS's closest competitors will likely be VEMS and MS3 (if it ever arrives). Both VEMS and MS3 will do V8 sequential which we won't, but both VEMS and MS3 will cost 2 - 5 times as much as a bare FreeEMS solution. FreeEMS should thump VEMS performance wise and be close to MS3 performance wise. MS3 will have significantly more IO and a LOT of features up front. VEMS has a lot of features up front too, but LESS IO, and in fact, less of everything else (pin count, CPU performance, memory, etc).

I would like to think that I'm not naive, though sometimes people show otherwise :-) On that note, I think it would be naive to think FreeEMS will compete with Motec and Autronic and XYZ in the future. Reason being, we are using a high end chassis chip, not an engine control chip. The latter is used in all of the more reputable mainstream standalones. What this equates to is MUCH less CPU power and IO and accuracy possible on our system. Does "much less" matter? No it doesn't, "much less" is still way way WAY more than enough.

FreeEMS as it is conceived is intended to meet all/most of my needs for all/most of my future and current projects AND the vast majority of low budget (but not low power) car builders needs. I hope that in the future FreeEMS becomes the low end option from a number of successful projects designed and built in different ways at that time. Some of them may butt heads with the "big boys" but on a feature for feature basis, most DIY solutions just won't. Cases and software features and outright CPU power just won't measure up. Once again, this doesn't matter as the approach taken by the big boys is to hit the ant problem with a sledge hammer solution. I like that approach, but it's not required. The way I see the XDP512 in the overall scheme of things is "just enough to do a 4/6 cylinder with plenty of accessories really well" also "just enough to do a 8 cylinder with plenty of accessories fairly well". If it is "just enough" then it is cheap. If it is a sledge hammer then it costs. The ECU processors are WAY more expensive. Not DIY friendly at all. There are other options, and in the future I'm sure we will get around to exploring them.

Right now we should all focus on the task at hand : Build a great DIY based community around a good mid range solution called FreeEMS. FreeEMS is a means to and end and an end in itself depending on who is looking at it and how you look at it.

A big community of clever people freely sharing ideas and knowledge is a GREAT thing for EVERYONE :-) We are well on track to that being a reality with a good number of very talented individuals here. Once we get FreeEMS "to market" this community will grow a LOT and all sorts of things will happen. If we don't get FreeEMS to market ever/soon enough this community will fade and disappear. I've put a lot of blood sweat and tears into it already so I REALLY want to see it succeed and I hope everyone here is thinking the same thing.

FreeEMS should be a very capable high quality solution that meets a specific set of general needs. Not a Motec beater etc as that is just not realistic at this time. Once FreeEMS brings in the masses absolutely ANYTHING is possible and something wonderful is definitely going to happen :-) FreeEMS should be pretty damn cool indeed by my standards at least, but it will by no means be the last thing out of this community!

Here's to the future!

Fred.
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!
User avatar
Delta
LQFP112 - Up with the play
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Perth, WA, Australia

Re: Where FreeEMS sits in the "market"

Post by Delta »

I think the greatest thing about open source is that people can surprise you. I'm both a competent electronic engineer and a software engineer. I've been planning to do something like this for years, and have quite a few circuit ideas floating around that just need finding and tweaking. Which obviously helps. I've just never had the time to really hit it hard. But the big thing is you guys are using gcc and making everything open. This means that what ever the outcome is, be it budget/juuust functional or awesome - it can be modified to suit something new.

So for example, I have a 68332 dev board at home - it was planned to be the controller for my attempt at an EMS. Its not as powerfull outright as the micro you guys have chosen - BUT it has a TPU and was designed for auto control. Right now I'm focused on PhD and my auto trans controller (which might help you guys develop a full PCM maybe?? - although because of the micro chosen its VERY specific to my gearbox). However after I've gotten that out of the way - i'll dig in on more electronics/software, and hopefully (after the first itteration is finished) I can come up with a port to coldfire based processor at some later date ie 68332 - same external hardware (to a point) and same software (to a point) just tweaked to the correct pins and modified to use the TPU. Perhaps this will allow us to build a Motec equivalent - perhaps not, might need to step up to an MPC555/556 or MPC5000 series.

For now its all pie in the sky - we have to get this one off the ground and going well. But with open source its a possibility at a later date to move to a more powerful core and support all those 'wants' and still keep the price low.

I see this system competing with (in australian terms) Wolf3d, Haltech E6K, EMS stinger, Microtech LT8s etc etc. Basically the bottom of the proper EFI market. You'de be surprised just how little processing power are in some of these. The Autronic SM4/Motec M4-6-800 range etc are obviously high power - infact I'm pretty sure the early Autronic SM2 was 68332 and SM4 is MPC5554 or equivalent.

To be honest Motec M800 is no better than say an EMS8860 - it just has the name. The motorsports course at the uni I work for/study at is sponsored by Motec - we have a lot of their equipment - and its no better than anyone else's top end stuff FWIW.
User avatar
Fred
Moderator
Posts: 15431
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm
Location: Home sweet home!
Contact:

Re: Where FreeEMS sits in the "market"

Post by Fred »

Delta wrote:But the big thing is you guys are using gcc and making everything open. This means that what ever the outcome is, be it budget/juuust functional or awesome - it can be modified to suit something new.
Absolutely, but along with that comes a risk that this forum provides a mechanism for that is branching and forking too early with consequential dilution and potential overall failure. I'm very wary of this, hence my push to try and keep the effort fairly narrow and focussed at least for the time being.
For now its all pie in the sky - we have to get this one off the ground and going well. But with open source its a possibility at a later date to move to a more powerful core and support all those 'wants' and still keep the price low.
Amen! Glad to hear this from you :-)
I see this system competing with (in australian terms) Wolf3d, Haltech E6K, EMS stinger, Microtech LT8s etc etc. Basically the bottom of the proper EFI market.
That's probably a fair statement.
You'de be surprised just how little processing power are in some of these.
Yeah, I've heard a few stories about "lack luster" performance from various makes.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

Fred.
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!
User avatar
Fred
Moderator
Posts: 15431
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm
Location: Home sweet home!
Contact:

Re: Where FreeEMS sits in the "market"

Post by Fred »

I moved the 6 vs 8 discussion here :

http://www.diyefi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=78
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!
ajb.tigger
TO92 - Vaguely active
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:01 am

Re: Where FreeEMS sits in the "market"

Post by ajb.tigger »

TBH the biggest thing that will make or break this project (popularity wise not in a tech sense) is going to be information on what the system can and can't do. If a potential user can get a definative list of capabilities and restrictions then he/she can be far more confident about trusting their engine to it. Few ppl actually need half the stuff offered by the high end systems but they will buy it for the peace of mind that it will be able to do what they need. Give them a list of compatable engines and warn them that e.g closed loop variable cam timing is not avaliable or that they can't run both individual coils and sequential injection (specific limitations of haltech e6x) and i know at least 3 ppl that would want one tomorrow (assuming their engine is on the list :lol2:). Anyway the point of all this is to agree that doing everything immediately is not at all important, rather build a solid platform that does the basics properly. Then you'll already have a competative product.
GrowlingandBiffo
QFP80 - Contributor
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:42 am

Re: Where FreeEMS sits in the "market"

Post by GrowlingandBiffo »

Delta wrote:I see this system competing with (in australian terms) Wolf3d, Haltech E6K, EMS stinger, Microtech LT8s etc etc. Basically the bottom of the proper EFI market. You'de be surprised just how little processing power are in some of these. The Autronic SM4/Motec M4-6-800 range etc are obviously high power - infact I'm pretty sure the early Autronic SM2 was 68332 and SM4 is MPC5554 or equivalent.

To be honest Motec M800 is no better than say an EMS8860 - it just has the name. The motorsports course at the uni I work for/study at is sponsored by Motec - we have a lot of their equipment - and its no better than anyone else's top end stuff FWIW.
In UK and the US the Motec is both the popular, and safe choice. Like IBM always used to be.

If you have a problem with a Motec application, you can pick up the phone, in the UK, and speak to a Race Engineer, and if need be he will visit.

Not a hardware techie or software, but a guy whom has been there, and bought the Tee shirt, as they say. It is similar with Pectel, whom seem to have the Rally boys ECU of choice.

Motec is not perfect and it is not the best, and really should be brought bang up to date, but you cannot knock ther service or support in the UK, or US.

The above assumes that the driver of the team car is being paid. If not then it is Clubman's or Track Day, and they will use ANYTHING...

Megasquirt gained a reputation for being cheap, this leaves a gap for being good...

Keep up the good work one and all, do not be deflected from your task, and keep listening to Fred, as he knows more about where the project should go, than any one else...
Post Reply