Newbie questions etc
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Author:  panel [ Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Newbie questions etc

Hi Fred , I'm not a programmer or a binary guy. Do you think I could make your product work? I did build a MS1 and then upgrade to the MS2-Extra but sold all my stuff with my air-cooled motor to go the Subaru conversion and run the OEM ECU.

Well now i might be back.

Author:  Fred [ Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newbie questions etc

Hi Panel, do you have a name? Or perhaps that's it? Forum names are funny like that, so I won't guess. :-D

I refuse to answer your questions until you've posted lots of medium-high resolution photos of your bus in this section!

I'm a bit of an air cooled fan... :-) Is it a bay or a split?

Seriously, though, you don't have to be a developer and you don't have to be a binary guy, whatever that is. However if you're the instant gratification type, or you're not persistent/patient, or not a good problem solver, not good with rational/reasoning/logical deductions, then maybe it's not for you? A number of people who are not programmers and computer geeks have done all the dirty work themselves. They are tech savvy, though, ie, use machines, happy with different operating systems, etc.

Do you use Linux? Daily? Ever? Which flavour? Life's much easier on (currently 32 bit) Debian based Linux like Mint or Ubuntu (or god forbid, Debian!) for the time being, though I'm working to change that. (and support 64 bit, too).

Subaru, though, that's a little bit of a problem - there is no support for Subaru patterns yet. It could be added, but the timeliness of that might be a problem for you. Nothing stopping you from modifying the existing wheel, though, or getting a spare to modify until we can write some Subby code.

Not wanting to dissuade you, however have you heard of RomRaider? It may be able to help you sort out your OEM ECU issues. One of our members/lurkers is a RomRaider expert, and there is an IRC channel on FreeNode #romraider in which you could ask a few questions (if patient).

Hope that helps! I'll jump in and disable your n00b status for you now. :-)

Author:  panel [ Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newbie questions etc

I'll post some pics I guess there but is it ok if I'm not running the Free EMS? What other things are a problem with Subaru other than the crank tooth wheel ? I can get a minus whatever wheel made.

I updated my signature for the full build thread of the Subaru addition :) It's a 1965 Split window panel van.

I'm running Ubuntu/Mint on my garage PC.

Is there some sort of logging feature with this EMS or like a way it automatically adjusts the VE table as you drive ?

Where can you buy the parts to build the ECU etc? What else do I need other than all the sensors I might have on the vehicle already ?


Author:  Fred [ Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Newbie questions etc

No pressure on the pics, though split window buses always look amazing :-) I don't know about Canada, but they're also worth a large fortune here, 25k NZ for a rusty wreck, 50k typical out to 80k for a minter. Just crazy. I doubt I'll ever buy another VW, except maybe a type 3 square back/wagon, good thing I have two bugs, then! :-) In terms of not running FreeEMS, the restricted section is "FreeEMS Vehicles" for obvious reasons, but users' rides is free for whatever you want to share/think will be interesting to others/have been convinced to share by begging :-) I'd be just as happy with a link to a thread about the bus itself. I went through your engine swap build thread and will dump a couple that I found near the end in below for you :-) If you have more, go nuts!

"Built by Germans powered by Japanese and brought together by Canadians" Nice quote!



Not sure if those will hot link OK, page 7 if not.

Nothing is wrong/weird about Subarus as far as I know. Just no support for the standard wheels yet, that's all. In terms of what to get made/put on, here's some extremes and why not to use them:

1) 6-2 fuel only cam driven - lowest missing tooth setup on FreeEMS ever. Insufficient accuracy/stability for ignition control IMO. Might work, but not well.
2) 8-1 ignition only crank driven - second lowest missing tooth, lowest missing tooth for ignition on FreeEMS. Worked fine but is less than I'd like to see in general.
3) 12-1 full control, crank driven - totally fine unless the engine is super low inertia and high torque, in which case it's not possible to maintain sync. For a less extreme engine 12-1 is sufficient, I have this on my KP60 downstairs and it's fine.
4) 36-1 typical Ford system, also used on Toyotas and Mazdas etc. With current code and tools, this is only good to about 5k RPM worst case. Hopefully we can roll out some new tools fairly soon that will allow the existing code to spin higher with these. No promises on timeline.
5) 60-2 typical euro car system, VW, BMW, Volvo, etc. I've personally revved a Volvo engine to around 7k with a 60-2 and it was fine, however others have had issues to lower RPM on the 36-1.

In general low resolution matters for only two scenarios:

1) Cranking - highly dynamic engine speed with a lot of inter-cylinder variation. Calculated scheduling between teeth tends to be wrong unless teeth close together. Can be made to work with different tricks, only affects some setups, not all.
2) Free revving/clutch dumps - high rate of acceleration causes a minor retardation of timing, high rate of deceleration causes minor advance of timing. Worst case would be an in-boost clutch dump with light flywheel where it could advance in the 2-6 degree range or so with a 12 tooth crank wheel.

At the other end of the scale the CPU load is increased and teeth can arrive before other code is finished.

What would I recommend then, for almost anyone, right now: 24-1. Why:

1) High enough RPM without issues
2) Fine enough for accurate cranking timing without tricks
3) Fine enough to handle rapid in-neutral acceleration on fairly extreme setups

24-1 will work well for almost anything.

Other sensors? An open element IAT placed where it won't heat soak would be a good thing to have, though that might be nearly impossible for you. In lieu of having it actually in the air stream, you could put it somewhere in ambient air away from sunlight and road heat and so forth. The turbo air heating will be pretty consistent and your VE curve will absorb the difference and give a consistent behaviour. It's also possible to just override it to a fixed value, or use a pot on the dash to trim it, and yes, these are hacky options, though sometimes useful. Better algorithms and more advanced features are required to do something significantly better than just trusting the value.

Logging is super easy, and there are a few ways to do that. The device streams log data at full speed by default and in a packetised format suitable for post processing. IE, with the right port settings you can simply cat the device to a file and look later. Utilities are easier, though. I can think of half a dozen ways to do that. I use one of two methods for now.

Re auto calibration, there is a non-friendly tool that does this in batches based on log files, nothing to do it in real time, yet.

Usual process is to live tune by hand until it's roughed out and moderately reasonable, then log, adjust, repeat. I dialed in a friend's car for WOT runs inside an hour and about 5 pulls doing it this way. The rest of his table space was already OK using the non-friendly tool that he wrote.

Check out this thread to get a kit of some sort: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2457

Here's a decent example of an OEM style install that's going on right now: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=2692

Be aware that all those flying leads are a bit of a pain and a fair bit of work to get setup. Once setup, though, they're fine and work reliably enough over all the miles I've used them for.

Another pain, that's not too bad, really, is building your configuration - it's not GUI based, it's source based, for now. All 2D and 3D tables are visually tunable, and all config is accessible, but it's only in hexadecimal which is awkward to say the least. It can be done and several do it, others prefer to import tuned tables to source and build from source repeatedly.

FreeEMS is not really user friendly, yet. You've been warned :-)

Also worth noting, if you end up on the mainland for any reason there is a keen and experienced FreeEMSer in Vancouver who would be worth talking to/visiting. I've not been out to the island for a few years, actually, I've not been to Canada in about 3 years at all. The island is lovely, though.

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