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building a harness 
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SOT-223 - Salvaje

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:21 am
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Location: Portland OREGON
Ok new. Design is twin jaguar boards with injection off loaded

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Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:23 pm
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"off loaded" ? what? One jaguar is more than enough for any 4 or 6 cylinder engine, not to mention most 8 cylinder engines! :-)

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Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:01 pm
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SOT-223 - Salvaje

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:21 am
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Location: Portland OREGON
You are right about the overhead delaying the signals. I retract dual controllers.

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Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:26 am
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You can run two, but they need their own inputs from key sensors, that's all.

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Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:52 am
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SOT-223 - Salvaje

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:21 am
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Location: Portland OREGON
I realized that as I was drifting off to sleep last night. The secondary will use 24x and I will jump the signal wire for the 1x if I go this route. I'm not going to bother listing out the key sensors at this time because that's a long way off. It does mean I'm likely to order 2 jaguars, since I have 2 vehicles anyway.

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Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:14 pm
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That's a bad idea too. Then one ECU will be injecting/igniting before the other one is ready. It'll also have different RPM readings (for various reasons). Until you have a running engine, I strongly suggest you focus on getting a running engine with exactly one board. After it runs, you can split things out and do whatever, and you'll have a base line to work from.

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FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:29 pm
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I agree, get it running on a single board, I'm not sure why you are wanting to run mulitple boards on one engine...

A little background on the Jaguar A3 (0.3-alpha as it has been renamed) board, which is the previous generation of the 0.4-alpha boards I'm testing now. I'm running a 1996 GM 3100 SFI V6, 3x crank input / 1x cam input, semi-sequential injection, GM DIS ignition, no IAC, but I do have the fuel pump, and cooling fan working via freeems-vanilla master branch code and eventually the 700R4 torque convertor lockup control will operate off the spare low side driver that is on the board (just waiting on complex logic code to be written). At the moment I'm using a TCI 700R4 TCC lockup harness which uses a vacuum switch to turn the TCC on or off. The 24x crank sensor was only used by the factory ECM to control the sequential injection at idle to reduce emissions, at engine speeds over idle the factory ECM used the 3x DIS output and fired the injectors in pairs. Keep in mind the factory injectors were only rated at 19 lbs/hour for the V6 and I4 engines, and for the v6 you would need much larger injectors to be able to supply enough fuel sequentially, which would result in a very fuel in-efficient and rough idle.

I have the A3 board in the S10 currently with over 1500 miles on it, it is a GM 2200 SFI I4, 2x crank input / 1x cam input, sequential injection, GM DIS ignition, no IAC. It has a manual transmission and the factory fuel pump relay is controlled by the oil pressure sensor (no oil pressure, no fuel), but the fuel pump low side driver on the A3 in doing the priming pulse before the engine is started.

Don't let the missing IAC controller issue worry you, like Fred said it would be relatively easy to get an on/off idle control valve to work if you insist, but I have been using my left foot to apply a little pressure on the gas pedal for about 90 seconds after startup on the FreeEMS S10 to act as the IAC, after that the engine has warmed up enough that I can take my foot off the gas pedal. That was on a 0C morning, on a 15C or warmer morning I just start it up and it idles. I did have to adjust the throttle plate to set my idle after I blocked off the GM IAC, now when it is warmed up, it idles about 900-950 RPM even with the air conditioning compressor running.

Just my $0.02 and over 1500 miles of on-highway experience with the current generation FreeEMS-vanilla firmware.

Edit: 04/30/2013 to strike through my incorrect statement regarding sequential injection and injector size.

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FreeEMS vehicle #11, 1932 Ford 5 Window Coupe with a 1996 GM 3.1L SFI V6 with DIS ignition
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Last edited by DeuceEFI on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:50 am
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DeuceEFI wrote:
Keep in mind the factory injectors were only rated at 19 lbs/hour for the V6 and I4 engines, and for the v6 you would need much larger injectors to be able to supply enough fuel sequentially, which would result in a very fuel in-efficient and rough idle.

Not quite sure where you got that from, or how much rum was behind it (irc), but that's not true. Sequential means you can get slightly more fuel out of the same injectors, or that they can be slightly smaller. The difference is tiny, though, and not worth considering.

Quote:
the factory fuel pump relay is controlled by the oil pressure sensor (no oil pressure, no fuel), but the fuel pump low side driver on the A3 in doing the priming pulse before the engine is started.

Are you saying that you have a 5th injector attached to it? Or that it overrides the oil pressure switch and powers the pump up briefly when it otherwise would not be? Hopefully the latter :-)

Quote:
I have been using my left foot to apply a little pressure on the gas pedal for about 90 seconds after startup on the FreeEMS S10 to act as the IAC, after that the engine has warmed up enough that I can take my foot off the gas pedal. That was on a 0C morning, on a 15C or warmer morning I just start it up and it idles. I did have to adjust the throttle plate to set my idle after I blocked off the GM IAC, now when it is warmed up, it idles about 900-950 RPM even with the air conditioning compressor running.

My experience exactly, too. My Mazda was similar. I had it setup to idle about 800 when warm, and it required about 30 seconds of divine intervention to get to the point of it not stalling. If I had jacked up the airflow for a 1000 RPM hot idle, it'd have probably started without any help. I had a tiny manual bleed on the dash that flowed virtually no air. This helped on a "very" cold morning (5-10C), but really wasn't worth the trouble. Another trick you can use is to tweak the ignition timing with temperature to control the idle speed.

Only pic I can find of the valve and hoses taped to the dash:

Image

Fred.

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FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
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Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:00 am
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LQFP144 - On Top Of The Game
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Fred wrote:
DeuceEFI wrote:
Keep in mind the factory injectors were only rated at 19 lbs/hour for the V6 and I4 engines, and for the v6 you would need much larger injectors to be able to supply enough fuel sequentially, which would result in a very fuel in-efficient and rough idle.

Not quite sure where you got that from, or how much rum was behind it (irc), but that's not true. Sequential means you can get slightly more fuel out of the same injectors, or that they can be slightly smaller. The difference is tiny, though, and not worth considering.


I was indeed mistaken on this one, that sentence should be taken out back and flogged... :-/

Fred wrote:
DeuceEFI wrote:
the factory fuel pump relay is controlled by the oil pressure sensor (no oil pressure, no fuel), but the fuel pump low side driver on the A3 in doing the priming pulse before the engine is started.

Are you saying that you have a 5th injector attached to it? Or that it overrides the oil pressure switch and powers the pump up briefly when it otherwise would not be? Hopefully the latter :-)


There is no 5th injector, I meant that during key on, engine not running, the Fuel Pump MOSFET Low Side Driver powers the pump briefly, then continuously while the engine is running (as commanded by the firmware) and in addition to that the factory engine oil pressure switch also is in the circuit to the fuel pump relay which interrupts the circuit should oil pressure fall below its setpoint to prevent damage to the engine from lack of lubrication. Since I am using the factory harness in the S10 I didn't want to butcher it too badly in case I needed to put it back to factory configuration in the event that it were to find a new home.

The Deuce has a custom wiring harness that doesn't use the factory engine oil pressure sensor, so the EMS is in full control of the fuel pump.

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FreeEMS vehicle #11, 1932 Ford 5 Window Coupe with a 1996 GM 3.1L SFI V6 with DIS ignition
FreeEMS vehicle #16, 1996 Chevrolet S10 2.2L SFI I4 with DIS ignition
http://www.coolefi.com


Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:52 pm
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SOT-223 - Salvaje

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:21 am
Posts: 144
Location: Portland OREGON
fred wrote:
I strongly suggest you focus on getting a running engine with exactly one board.
I strongly agree.
DeuceEFI wrote:
I agree, get it running on a single board, I'm not sure why you are wanting to run mulitple boards on one engine...


I don't want to run 2 boards on a single engine. I want more features on a single board. I might want 2 cpus on one board or a couple extra cores, but it will be too much work to have a failover controller.
fred wrote:
That's a bad idea too
Hopefully you agree that the Jaguar on the truck isn't a bad idea though
DeuceEFI wrote:
A little background on the Jaguar A3 (0.3-alpha as it has been renamed) board, which is the previous generation of the 0.4-alpha boards I'm testing now.
And we are all eager and excited about the release. I can say that I value the patience required to have not only a car that runs on FreeEMS but has a high mean time between failures

Quote:
I'm running a 1996 GM 3100 SFI V6, 3x crank input / 1x cam input, semi-sequential injection, GM DIS ignition, no IAC, but I do have the fuel pump, and cooling fan working via freeems-vanilla master branch code and eventually the 700R4 torque convertor lockup control will operate off the spare low side driver that is on the board (just waiting on complex logic code to be written). At the moment I'm using a TCI 700R4 TCC lockup harness which uses a vacuum switch to turn the TCC on or off.

Remarkably similar. I'll also do 3x/1x, ssi, gm dis, and no iac. Always nice to have a cooling fan relay functioning. The TCC is a bit further out for me. I don't expect to begin figuring out how to leave the driveway until I have a reliable engine starting and running condition. I am planning on going 'all out' with a hybrid transmission that interfaces like a manual that requires 'complex logic code' to be written. I'm likely going to start with something similar to your recommended TCI 700R4 but I still need to solve shifting since my transmission is electrically controlled. I'm not about to start pulling my engine to replace the transmission with a manual. I'd be more likely to pick up another grand am than do that this year.

Quote:
The 24x crank sensor was only used by the factory ECM to control the sequential injection at idle to reduce emissions, at engine speeds over idle the factory ECM used the 3x DIS output and fired the injectors in pairs. Keep in mind the factory injectors were only rated at 19 lbs/hour for the V6 and I4 engines, and for the v6 you would need much larger injectors to be able to supply enough fuel sequentially, which would result in a very fuel in-efficient and rough idle.

I've read this a few times. So for my setup using the 3x signal I have a few things to determine. Do I need bigger injectors? Will I be using sequential injection or pairs? Will there be a different state at idle

Quote:
I have the A3 board in the S10 currently with over 1500 miles on it, it is a GM 2200 SFI I4, 2x crank input / 1x cam input, sequential injection, GM DIS ignition, no IAC. It has a manual transmission and the factory fuel pump relay is controlled by the oil pressure sensor (no oil pressure, no fuel), but the fuel pump low side driver on the A3 in doing the priming pulse before the engine is started.

I'll settle for a switch if I have to. I'll likely figure out something easy for the fuel.

Quote:
Don't let the missing IAC controller issue worry you,
I'm not. Last time I checked my feet still work
Quote:
like Fred said it would be relatively easy to get an on/off idle control valve to work if you insist, but I have been using my left foot to apply a little pressure on the gas pedal for about 90 seconds after startup on the FreeEMS S10 to act as the IAC, after that the engine has warmed up enough that I can take my foot off the gas pedal. That was on a 0C morning, on a 15C or warmer morning I just start it up and it idles. I did have to adjust the throttle plate to set my idle after I blocked off the GM IAC, now when it is warmed up, it idles about 900-950 RPM even with the air conditioning compressor running.

Just my $0.02 and over 1500 miles of on-highway experience with the current generation FreeEMS-vanilla firmware.

I also have a test port that I have a flexible hose attached to that I can pull the plug out really easily so the engine can stay running at fast idle while I'm outside of it.

fred wrote:
I had a tiny manual bleed on the dash that flowed virtually no air.

I have a vacuum line that runs through my harness. It will have a plug and go to the test port. I can control it from inside the vehicle without too much trouble, thanks.

_________________
Code:
{url: andrewgauger.com, skype: andrgaug, email: andg@andrewgauger.com, car: 25, fb: facebook.com/DonatoArrighi, github: andg.github.io, assets:https://s3.amazonaws.com/3400}


Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 pm
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