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TO220 - Visibile

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 7:50 pm
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Hi guys

I would like to begin by saying how much I admire what you are doing here. It takes a hole different type of person to share the results of his hard work, sleepless nights and time stolen from families. This project itself is an amazing example of people rebelling against monopolization of EMS manufacture ( like Linux vs. some companies not to be named here).

I am new to this forum, but not to Mechanical nor Electronic HW. I am definitely way lower in the food chain than most of the developers in here, but I have done my share of messing with electronics to be willing to become a tester of the system.

I am Graduated Mechanical Engineer who likes playing with electronics for hobby ( had enough time to mess extensively with SMD components) . I have in my garage 2 (potentially 3*) engines bugging me. One is Honda F23A7 (2.3l 4 cylinder vtech) from Shuttle (odyssey in Japan). Second one is the reason I was looking into custom EMS - Renault L7X ( 3.0 v6 24v DOHC) from Laguna. I will be making a testing rig for this engine to be used in a future project.

I have spent quite a few evenings reading through this forum and have learned alot. I intend to use my Renault V6 engine with FreeEMS. I do know Jaguar is in its sort of Beta and boards are not available to Users yet. But here is the trick - A good friend of mine has a small OEM pcb multilayer Manufacturing factory here in Bulgaria. I cant make any promises but might be able to arrange a batch of PCB's. This friend of mine is very competent in programming matters and unbelievably friendly and helpful. Will talk to him in the morning and IF he has an occasional minute to spare I bet he will be glad to participate in this project.

But first things first - Will be building Frame for testing rig for the engine when time allows. Until after that would be grateful for as much info on the Jaguar PCb problems and revisions as possible. Still reading through the forum and educating myself on programming part of the project.

I have a Question regarding Jaguar: I want to use 6 channels for Injection and 3 channels for waster spark ignition setup. My question is what coils do you use in your projects. Any advantages/disadvantages and reliability feedback would be much appreciated ( Renault originals are cr*p).

Fred - are you in Spain??? Has this thought crossed your mind:

Using some of the input/outputs to rig something even more unique: running both Petrol injection and LPG injection by same EMS. Using same Injection channels for both, but using a relay for injectors common positive lead to choose which injectors to run. its quite a bit more complex than that , but its just a thought worth mentioning.

Keep up the good work guys and from now on will try to participate as much as I can.




* Have half dismantled older Renault J7T ( 2.2 straight 4) - all complete that requires only a head gasket and head skimming - might run some tests on it as well as its a bullet proof engine until some monkey drives the car and overheats it for a few times and even though its with EFi with 4 injectors - they all run on one channel.


Tue May 15, 2012 11:34 pm
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Hi and welcome!

Thanks for all of the kind words, I personally appreciate it very much.

I see that you mentioned Jaguar a few times, do take a look at RavAGE too, as it appears to fit your needs better. It's not a board, yet, though.

Re channels, read this: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1084 3 ignition and 3 injection for a start, more later. You'll be surprised at how well it runs with semi-sequential. Sequential isn't as essential as you might think.

Re coils, most modern (non can) coils work pretty well, some better than others. Pick anything convenient and upgrade if you have to, would be my advice.

And yes, I'm in Barcelona. Thinking of a summer visit? :-)

Re lpg/petrol, that will be doable eventually, though not with a relay switching, just with a whole 'nother set of outputs and software switching.

You can convert your J7T to sequential + wasted spark if you want, and if it has appropriate inputs for that.

You may care to start a couple of other threads: User rides entries (if you want, and want to talk about specific car details), and engine trigger pattern/decoder threads (one per pattern). Here and here:

viewforum.php?f=56 decoders
viewforum.php?f=3 users rides

Fred.

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Wed May 16, 2012 9:33 am
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TO220 - Visibile

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Thank you Fred for some directions to start with.

I have been reading more today - my head will explode from things learned.
Thing I have noticed that 95% of the things documented here are by you Fred. Respect mate!!!

One thing I was after today was original wiring diagram of the EMS for the v6 engine. So.. I got it. Now surprise, surprise - its semi-sequential anyway :lol: . Its like that up to a point. Bear with me - this engine has 2 revisions with only mechanical difference in inlet manifold design and apparently later one which is 210HP is fully sequential. I will have to do with only 194HP ( its just original numbers - I bet it could go way above it with a good tune). I dont mind as i am after torque and not as much power ( that is why i am not just using Honda engine to begin with - that has a lot of possibilities to increase power, but not low end torque).

It will end up with a very interesting and challenging project.

Tomorrow will take a look at sensors and see if I can do with factory fitted ones.

First thing that begins to bug me is ignition timing. If I understand correctly i need to have camshaft PS as well as Crankshaft PS. Problem is that this engine never had one fitted and there are no easy means to retrofit one as this engine was originally designed to use wasted spark type ignition and doesn't have any openings at the back of the head even to lock camshafts during timing belt change.

is there any easy way to identify what kind of wheel it uses originally for crankshaft PS? or do I have to get inside the sump ( actually it might be on the flywheel - will confirm tomorrow) .


Now regarding Boards - I do know RavAge is well explained here and would probably be better option for me, but I am not a big fan of the modular things that look like they were made in a hurry (no offense). Even when experimenting i am usually etching boards at home. If I was to use RavAge i would probably make my own board. All of that is too much hassle as I am not that good and would take me a considerable amount of time to do it properly. I know that Puma was a quite successful for a MK1 design, but had its problems. That is why i believe that Jaguar board sound nice to me. That is just my thinking if anyone has any arguments for or against my train of thought - I will be glad to hear you out and take it into account.


Thank you for you help and thoughts.

P.S. How many layers Jaguar has?


Wed May 16, 2012 9:56 pm
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Welcome to the forums.

Thanks for the kind words! They are much appreciated by the core developers here, especially at this point in time!

RavAGE is NOT modular, so I am not sure what you mean by that and it has been in no way developed "in a hurry".

Please clarify what you mean here? As I think RavAGE will be better suited to your design.

Thanks for taking the time to post! :-)

Cheers

Dan

EDIT: Jaguar is a 2-layer PCB.


Thu May 17, 2012 1:14 am
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Sorry Dan - I phrased it wrongly. As far as I know RavAge board is in development by you at the moment. :worship: . For the time being (again as far as I understand) its more like a few development boards stuck together. Please correct me if I am wrong. Are you sticking to the 4 layer design? Pricewise it will go sky high compared to 2 layer boards. And what is more troublesome is that way less manufacturers can do them in relatively small quantities. My friend has the equipment to make them, but he recons its not worth setting these machines up for small quantities. Mind you he is relatively small business.

About my previous question can anyone comment on them? I am going to the engine in half an hour to check sensors, remove gearbox and try to see what kind is the crankshaft PS trigger wheel it uses, I am going to remove MAP and CPS and find as much info as I can. Other things I should note on the engine?

And for my bad phrasing - I sincerely apologize - English is my 4-th language.

Have a nice day/evening guys.


Thu May 17, 2012 11:50 am
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Excuse brevity: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1722

Vitasik wrote:
Sorry Dan - I phrased it wrongly. As far as I know RavAge board is in development by you at the moment.

Correct.

Quote:
For the time being (again as far as I understand) its more like a few development boards stuck together.

No.

Quote:
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Dan ^

Quote:
Are you sticking to the 4 layer design? Pricewise it will go sky high compared to 2 layer boards. And what is more troublesome is that way less manufacturers can do them in relatively small quantities. My friend has the equipment to make them, but he recons its not worth setting these machines up for small quantities. Mind you he is relatively small business.

Dan ^

Quote:
About my previous question can anyone comment on them? I am going to the engine in half an hour to check sensors, remove gearbox and try to see what kind is the crankshaft PS trigger wheel it uses, I am going to remove MAP and CPS and find as much info as I can. Other things I should note on the engine?

All inputs that you (might) want to use. All outputs that you want to control.

Cam sensor not required

Sequential not possible without cam sensor

Crank sensor research: inet, scope, inspection, manuals/books. If inspection, take photographs.

Quote:
And for my bad phrasing - I sincerely apologize - English is my 4-th language.

NP.

Fred.

_________________
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Thu May 17, 2012 12:35 pm
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Vitasik wrote:
Thank you Fred for some directions to start with.

NP

Quote:
Thing I have noticed that 95% of the things documented here are by you Fred. Respect mate!!!

Thanks :-)

Quote:
Now surprise, surprise - its semi-sequential anyway

Crank only = semi seq.

Quote:
this engine has 2 revisions with only mechanical difference in inlet manifold design and apparently later one which is 210HP is fully sequential.

Inlet manifolds are good like that. Mine:

Image

Image

More: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16

Quote:
I will have to do with only 194HP ( its just original numbers - I bet it could go way above it with a good tune).

seq/semi will not affect power output by a measurable amount. Idle quality, emissions, economy and response are affected by a tiny amount. You'll like semi/wasted ;-)

Quote:
I dont mind as i am after torque and not as much power

Ben and I hate you :-) power = torque @ rpm. you're trying to describe the desired shape of your torque curve by using an absolute number. it doesn't work. If you want to accelerate, you want your best torque between shift points. Honda does that :-)

Quote:
It will end up with a very interesting and challenging project.

Yes.

Quote:
Tomorrow will take a look at sensors and see if I can do with factory fitted ones.

99.99% yes.

Quote:
First thing that begins to bug me is ignition timing. If I understand correctly i need to have camshaft PS as well as Crankshaft PS.

No. Only for cop/seq.

Quote:
Problem is that this engine never had one fitted and there are no easy means to retrofit one as this engine was originally designed to use wasted spark type ignition and doesn't have any openings at the back of the head even to lock camshafts during timing belt change.

Wasted spark is good. Roll with it.

Quote:
is there any easy way to identify what kind of wheel it uses originally for crankshaft PS? or do I have to get inside the sump ( actually it might be on the flywheel - will confirm tomorrow) .

pulley or flywheel, sometimes behind cam belt.

Quote:
Now regarding Boards - I do know RavAge is well explained here and would probably be better option for me, but I am not a big fan of the modular things that look like they were made in a hurry (no offense). Even when experimenting i am usually etching boards at home. If I was to use RavAge i would probably make my own board. All of that is too much hassle as I am not that good and would take me a considerable amount of time to do it properly.

Makes no sense.

Quote:
I know that Puma was a quite successful for a MK1 design, but had its problems.

Is this a joke? 4/36? success rate. 75%-95% of board needs mods.

Quote:
That is why i believe that Jaguar board sound nice to me.

Requires hacking to do what you need.

Quote:
That is just my thinking if anyone has any arguments for or against my train of thought - I will be glad to hear you out and take it into account.

Lots, but wrist sore.

_________________
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Thu May 17, 2012 12:57 pm
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Fred wrote:
Quote:
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Dan ^


Yes you are wrong, RavAGE is not a modular set of PCB's. But if you are saying that others are using modular PCB's and that appears all that is available, then yes, you are pretty much correct.

Fred wrote:
Quote:
Are you sticking to the 4 layer design? Pricewise it will go sky high compared to 2 layer boards. And what is more troublesome is that way less manufacturers can do them in relatively small quantities. My friend has the equipment to make them, but he recons its not worth setting these machines up for small quantities. Mind you he is relatively small business.

Dan ^


At this stage, yes 4 layers. But I am still undecided exactly. I need to make an educated decision. As there will be a "basic" RavAGE unit and a full featured RavAGE unit. The "basic" one could possibly have 2-layers, but I am not 100% sure on yes as of yet. As far as price goes, I can get them reasonable priced in 4 layers and small quantities.


Thu May 17, 2012 2:28 pm
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Now I apologize for my previous stupid comments - now i have been educating myself on this forum for a while.

I have been unemployed, but still very busy trying to earn my living. Now i am back in the game of being full time employed by city council. :twisted: . This means steady income and strict working hours. I have 2 engines to replace in the coming week at home, but after that i am all yours. As soon as i finish swapping engines will quickly rewire my garage wiring as its p*ssing me right off as its ancient and cant get my welder at full power due to voltage drop in the thin wires.

So I would like to start building my own board - Ravage or Jaguar. I still haven't decided yet , but I will be using it mainly on a v6 Renault 3.0 engine. Can anyone suggest which should i go for? And than who I must extort/kill to get(i mean buy) one PCB for testing and running purposes? I would like to start ordering things like SMD elements to get them in time for a build.

As soon as i start doing anything will start a separate thread with lots of pictures.

P.S. Fred that manifold fabrication is awesome!!! I cant imagine how much time you have spent on it.


Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:48 am
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Thanks :-)

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DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:36 am
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