Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

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Fred
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by Fred »

OT, what is the current status of this?
Fred wrote:Hopefully we can bring the system up to a generally usable level by early next year at the latest. Lots to do, but several people are dedicated to it, so it should happen.
I was right for a change! :-) We went from 1 car run to 7 in about 6 months? :-)

Fred.
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by opticaltrigger »

Hi all,and thanks for the birthday e-mail.
It's the first time in an age that I've been able to catch up on some internet stuff.Got back to the UK about a week back after some time in the mid east,one of the the high points of which has to have been the madness of Cairo in the middle of a demonstration.Mad!!!...
Anyway...car stuff.
The car is a runner finaly and the exhaust note is just great.But,and here it comes.
The ignition system that I had been working on did'nt work out completely.The motor did start and run but wouldnt run smoothly or rev up over 2500 rpm witout missing.Still I did learn a tremendous amount and totaly changed the way that I veiwed engines.
Now that Im back in the UK again and back on the car I'm really keen to get to grips with this EMS system.As I've been out of play here for quite some time now it would be great if you guys could bring me up to speed with where it's all at presently,last time Fred had mentioned that the ignition was still being worked on.Would be great to hear what the state of play is.
Anyway guys here is some of the lattest work on the motor and if it comes out ok some video of it.
Good to be back and please keep up the great work all of you.
All the best O.T.

Image

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWr_LJ__o-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5LNPY5U2No
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Fred
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by Fred »

opticaltrigger wrote:Hi all,and thanks for the birthday e-mail.
Wait, what? Did I send it, or did the forum? If I sent it, I've forgotten. If it was the forum, I don't want it spamming users LOL. Let me know if I have Alzheimer's or bad settings :-)
The car is a runner finaly and the exhaust note is just great.But,and here it comes.
Cool! :-)
The ignition system that I had been working on did'nt work out completely.The motor did start and run but wouldnt run smoothly or rev up over 2500 rpm witout missing.Still I did learn a tremendous amount and totaly changed the way that I veiwed engines.
I totally understand! :-) Keep at it, it's probably doable.
Now that Im back in the UK again and back on the car I'm really keen to get to grips with this EMS system. As I've been out of play here for quite some time now it would be great if you guys could bring me up to speed with where it's all at presently,last time Fred had mentioned that the ignition was still being worked on.Would be great to hear what the state of play is.
Two people are daily driving, both are ignition only. Ignition works, and is under further development to be even better, as is the rest of the system. IE, FreeEMS is usable right now, depending on your setup. What do you have for an RPM/Position input again? There is some work to do to make it 100% bullet proof, but I'm in the process of getting that done at the moment, so it should be trustworthy on the craziest turbo monsters by the end of the year or so. There is also a hardware design coming together to equal the big boys. See the RavAGE section for that. Again, scheduled for end of the year, though I can see that pushing out a bit, realistically. Things are in good shape and getting better every day.
Anyway guys here is some of the lattest work on the motor and if it comes out ok some video of it.
It sounds throaty in that video! :-) Nice.

Fred.
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opticaltrigger
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by opticaltrigger »

I'm sure it was generated by the forum but it was accurate though.
As a bit of an update on things.To prove a point we removed all of my ignition system and reconected the standard set up and as you would imagine it started right up and reved up without any problems.
For anyone whos interested as to what it was that did'nt work with the optical set up well after a little bit of head scratching and a bit of time on the scope,it was the width of the blades on my choper wheel.They were not quite wide enough and did'nt alow the engine to advance up enough as the revs went up,if you like ,it had a built in rev limiter.
In a really wiered way Im quite happy as it wasnt the code that was a problem,that bit worked faultlesly.
As things stand today it's all running on completley standard Bosch LE2 Jetronic fuel and ignition which of course means it cant be alowed to go into boost.
However it's that time of year now where the car gets less and less done on it due to the cold weather curtailing things a bit but the car is esentialy finished and is only wanting a proper engine managment system to complete things.Our hope is that we are able to use this system on it come the early part of next year.
In answer to your question above on what it uses for an rpm/position signal Fred,it dosent have one as such it's a simple old LE2 Jetronic setup which I am assuming means that we would require a trigger wheel and hall pick up.
Actualy,while Im on the subject it would be great if possible to have some details as to that sort of thing and what you guys recomend to be the best setup by way of sensors etc for this paticular motor were running.

Anyway guys enough babbeling from me,will try and get some photos up mid week when I go over to the car again.
Keep up all the great work guys and
All the best O.T.
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Fred
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

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opticaltrigger wrote:it was the width of the blades on my choper wheel.They were not quite wide enough and did'nt alow the engine to advance up enough as the revs went up,if you like ,it had a built in rev limiter.
I don't understand your description, but it sounds like you were scheduling from a fixed edge? Due to the nature of dwell, battery voltage, rpm and time, it's pretty much compulsory to transition from one edge to another and therefore to choose the best edge at any time. I had a bug in my scheduling that affected my car in NZ at exactly 3800 RPM. IF you could sneak past it then you could rev to redline fine. The trick was that when you swap from one to the other you lose an event, and on a dizzy setup, that means you lose all events. The bug wasn't noticeable on my truck with COP. If you're planning to use FreeEMS, then you don't need to worry about that anymore :-)
the car is esentialy finished and is only wanting a proper engine managment system to complete things.Our hope is that we are able to use this system on it come the early part of next year.
That's the plan! Hopefully we can have a good design available by around then and the firmware and UI stuff polished up a bit too.
In answer to your question above on what it uses for an rpm/position signal Fred,it dosent have one as such it's a simple old LE2 Jetronic setup which I am assuming means that we would require a trigger wheel and hall pick up.
Yes you will, or a VR sensor, or something optical, which would seem most fitting ;-) What was the optical disk that you had in it for your system? Maybe you can use that as is with FreeEMS? If you want COP or Sequential then you need a cam signal with full sync. If you only want wasted spark and semi sequential, which is pretty good, then you can just use a crank wheel. It's up to you, really. Let me know what your plans are before you go ahead and I can OK them for you.
Actualy,while Im on the subject it would be great if possible to have some details as to that sort of thing and what you guys recomend to be the best setup by way of sensors etc for this paticular motor were running.
  • Water temp, whatever fits.
  • Air temp, something open element and fast such as the GM stuff. Mounting location is critical to good performance and other characteristics.
  • MAP sensor, something linear and with enough range to cover trailing throttle and full boost with a little headroom. Nearly anything will work.
  • RPM, as long as it's reasonably common, I will give you support. If you want optical, how about this: http://status.freeems.org/firmware/decoders/FreeEMS/
  • TPS, whatever fits
  • WBO2, whatever you can get your hands on at a good price that is known to not be crap. LC1 is a common choice. www.14point7.com has a few options worth looking at too.
I hope that helps! :-)

Fred.
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by jharvey »

opticaltrigger wrote:For anyone whos interested as to what it was that did'nt work with the optical set up well after a little bit of head scratching and a bit of time on the scope,it was the width of the blades on my choper wheel.
It sounds like you found the pulses where becoming rounded or flat lining when you approached higher RPMs. I can see how this can happen if you do not have proper impedance matching between your sensor and your control unit. Also when you had the scope on it, did you have the processor attached? Can you log direct from the processor like OLV allows with FreeEMS? Can you make a quick sketch showing the components and how they where wired to each other including where the scope was attached? Perhaps we can offer advice on how you can get a clean signal back to the control unit. Here are some thoughts that might be worth considering.

I don't think you did this, but this would likely be a bad place for coax, as the ADC input is typically a high impedance, and coax is typically 50ohm to 300ohm. That impedance mismatch can prevent the energy from your sensor from getting to the ADC and into the processor logic. Also most coax is not rated for the temperatures under the hood. When it gets warm, the impedance changes which can induce errors in you signal. A slightly twisted pair of wire would likely allow for a good transmission line impedance match. Do you know the impedance of you sensor, or processor unit's input?

I'm guessing you provide gnd and +5 to the sensor, and it has a pulsed digital signal that returns to the processor with common ground. A couple small bulk caps at the sensor can help allow the sensor to have the energy it needs when it tries to push. I'm not sure how much energy it needs, but you might find benefit from a small-ish 1uF/.1uF ceramic or a small 10uF cap at the power leads of the sensor. Basically the digital edges of the sensors output can draw large spikes of current. If you have slightly small power wires, or if you have low capacitance on the supply wires, when the raising edge happens the power supply is soggy, and it makes it kind of hard for the sensor to push the electrons. If a cap at the sensor helps, you can probably move the cap to a better location. However it's simpler for test purposes if you put it at the sensor.

If I'm correct in that you have a three lead sensor. I would suggest the signal wire and ground wire be twisted perhaps 10 to 20 times before returning to the processor. The twisting helps prevent noise from coupling into the signal. By putting two wires next to each other with a potential, you have created a capacitor. The wire insulation is the dielectric, and the wire is plate. It's not much, but it exists. By twisting, you create some inductance that counter acts the capacitance. Which allows for a more clean signal to pass the wires. Having only a couple turns prevents from creating extra inductance that can create a low pass filter. Also use something like 18 awg wire, perhaps bigger if you can, even though the signals are likely in the mA range, and check if you have a highly capacitive supply for your + side of you sensor. Notice that the phone company usually uses 22 awg, with many turns per inch. That's for voice signals, you want larger wires and less turns for you higher power and higher frequency signals.

Oh, also ground the sensor at the process unit if you can. Do not ground at the battery.

To ball park the desired frequency response, I'll assume an engine that rev's up to 12kRPM, so 200 R/S. I'll guess your sensor has 100 teeth per rotation, so that's 20,000 pulses per second. To get a semi clean pulse edge, you really want at least the 4th to 5th harmonic. The 5th harmonic means your transmission line needs to pass 100kHz. At the low limit, say 500 RPM, that frequency needs to pass about 4kHz. This frequency range puts the signals in a bit of an odd range. http://www.generalcable.co.nz/Technical/10.4.1.1.pdf

Hope it goes, well, and when you get this up the hill, post pictures/videos.
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by Fred »

This stuff about coax being no good is not appropriate, Jared. Those impedance figures are for very high frequencies. The optical disk is likely to be 4 window not 100, if it were one hundred it would need to be an encoder to get position information. I doubt OT has done that. Such a solution would not be suitable for an automotive environment either and any capacitance would screw it up completely at higher RPM.

As for twisted pair, it's only effective for the part that is twisted. If you have 2m with one twisted and 1 not, it's not any different to having 1m of untwisted pair at low engine frequencies. You're OT in OT's thread! :-p

Fred.
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by opticaltrigger »

Hi Guys,
It's really not all that advanced guys,it was simply a four segment wheel which gave a Hi/Lo output from an opto schmit trigger every time the beam was broken

The standard Bosch distributor had a reluctor inside which gave an output sine wave peak voltage of between about 8v at idle and about 18v at full speed this in turn was used to switch the ignition amp.

All I did was set the four segment wheel where the rotor arm used to be with the blades positioned over each of the four reluctor prongs there by allowing the output signal from the schmit trigger to open an opto triac a little before the output from the reluctor.The PIC16F876 merely decided which triac to open there by aranging the firing order.The sine wave from the reluctor could then be directed via the triacs to one of four ignition amps and in turn switch the appropriate coil.

My problem was that I had not put wide enough blades on the wheel so when the reluctor prongs started to swing round under advance a point came where it overtook the blades on the wheel and at that point as you would imagine it all started to rapidly go wrong.The symptoms were quite straight forward, missing and not reving up past about 2500 RPM.

The honest truth,and there's no denying it was that it was a very sever and basic oversight/fault on my part.
Still,on the bright side if I had not had a go at it I would never have found this site.And the thing is I enjoyed every bit of the learning curve including the figuring out what failed.

All the best guys
O.T.
Last edited by Fred on Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added some white space for readability.
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by Fred »

Ahhh, I see! Interesting stuff! :-) Good to see that I was on the money re the disk slot count. I look forward to hearing what you plan to use on the car for your final solution.
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Re: Our Turbo Pugeot 205 Hill Climb Project

Post by opticaltrigger »

Oh,that part's real easy Fred.The decision is already there.Free EMS.
I want to run a set of 440cc injectors in place of the standard ones and perhaps a trigger wheel on the pully with a hall sensor over it.I'm thinking now about how to rig up a cam sensor for it to as I recall you saying earlier that to have sequential ignition it's required.
I'm very excited about the prospects of running this on Free EMS,as far as I'm concerned it's the only option and I'm happy to wait for it.For now,the weather over hear has turned and I guess not a great deal will happen with the car over the next couple of months or so,which is great for a change because it ties in great with thiss.
At the moment the car is runing it's bog standard ignition and fuel set up purley to allow us to run the engine up when needed however the wastegate is undone to prevent boost.It's gona stay this way now untill we can get our hands on Free EMS.
As a result Fred,I would like to spend this next couple of months geting some things ready in preperation so if possible I would really like to get your thoughts on the details of things like the trigger wheel,for example is a 36/1 wheel acceptable and what you think would be best for rigging up a cam sensor.Also another concern for me is the best location for the 02 sensor etc.
As I'm sure you can see I'm itching to get on with stuff for the big day.It would be great to start geting the relevent work done asap.

All the best
OT
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