NoNameBrand's 1985 Honda VF500F Build

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NoNameBrand
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NoNameBrand's 1985 Honda VF500F Build

Post by NoNameBrand »

Hello, I have been lurking here for about a month now.

Here is the story thus far!

I have had an interest in motorcycles (all makes and models, I don't judge!) for quite a while. Scouring the various used vehicle sources for a good buy had become somewhat of an obsession in the last few years. I had more-or-less decided that I was going to get a 1989 Yamaha FZR400 as my first bike. I loved the big bug-eyed look of the side-by-side headlights. After waiting about 4 years for one to show up at a good price (my idea of one at least), I finally decided I had waited long enough. I found and bought my current bike, a 1985 Honda VF500F, for $900 CAD.It required a little work to get it certified (new fork seals and rear tire with recommendation of changing the chain, sprockets and footpegs) but once it was legal I rode it to and from work everyday for the next 3 months, rain or shine. I only put it away because the last day or two I rode it, snow was starting to fall and stay on the ground. Though it wasn't my first choice but it's really grown on me. I particularly like that being a V4, it is something a little different than most current bikes, especially bikes with a similar displacement.

Since before I even owned the bike, I have been interested in CARB to EFI conversions. Since getting it on the road, it has had a couple issues so I am hoping to kill two birds with one stone here. One, I can hopefully resolve some of the issues. Two, I have a project to work on.

Here is where I currently stand:
  • The engine is living in my basement.
  • I have a set of 2008 Honda CBR600RR throttle bodies with the main injectors (normally, these are paired with a set of shower injectors). The CBR is an I4 but the throttle bodies can be separated in the middle - more on that below.
  • I bought a partially populated Jaguar from Impregacy and received it in the mail yesterday.
  • I am hoping to have a timing sprocket made up for the cam sensing in the next day or two but I am hoping that someone here can shed some light on some specifics about that.
  • I should be able to use the existing VR sensors on crank (RPM?), Temp, TPS (came with throttle bodies)
My overall goal is to have the bike back up and running by late this month with full sequential fuel and spark if possible. I do not know as much about this systems as I feel I probably should going into this. I will likely have many questions. Please bear with me.

Here are EFI related the tasks I am currently foreseeing. I expect this list will grow much larger:
  • Figure out what all I need to finish building the Jaguar, order the parts, populate.
  • Figure out what I need for the cam position sensor. I was thinking a 36-1 sprocket but Impregacy mentioned that the 36-1 may only be used for crank position.
    I am planning to put the sprocket between where the timing chain comes up and one of the lobes (Timing sprocket is in the middle) so space is very limited. Maybe 1/3" - 1/2". I have not measured yet. Are there any pickups that anyone would recommend?
  • Figure out a setup for the throttle bodies. Splitting them leaves one side without throttle cables. I MAY do some kind of a throttle by wire system as I don't have the equipment to do any proper custom fabrication work and don't want to spend the money to have it done for me. I am however pretty decent (imo) at writing firmware and use stepper motors fairly regularly so I am looking to that as a possible option. Having a TPS should be able to alleviate any worry about the steppers not being where they "think" they are as well so it should be easier than normal.
  • I need to figure out the O2 sensor - The exhaust 4-2; Does this matter or am I going to be getting skewed data as a result of this? Again, any recommendations for sensors would be appreciated.
  • Figure out MAP sensor.
  • Figure out how to interface with IAC valve
  • ...Figure out everything else. :S
Misc. Other tasks:
    • Near
    • Think of a new way to display speed and RPM, among other things. I accidentally broke the needle off my speedometer while trying to figure out how it worked / playing with it.
    • Far
    • Possibly rework exhaust
    • Remove two-up seat. Possibly shorten whole rear end. Figure out new seating setup.
    • Farther
    • Single-sided swing arm (vfr or speed triple seems most economical)
    • Front end swap
    • Farthest (possibly never)
    • Boost?
    • Boost control?
Impromptu photo shoot the day I picked up the bike. :P
Impromptu photo shoot the day I picked up the bike. :P
Motor out of the bike
Motor out of the bike
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Fred
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Re: NoNameBrand's 1985 Honda VF500F Build

Post by Fred »

Awesome! :-) I've got lots of good point by point advice for you, and I'll likely post on that later this evening. In the mean time I want to A get some things done B relax a little and need to C pick up my wife. I've already pulled my CHT and gained a calibration for it and reinstalled it since I got home :-)
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Re: NoNameBrand's 1985 Honda VF500F Build

Post by Fred »

NoNameBrand wrote:Since before I even owned the bike, I have been interested in CARB to EFI conversions.
Just finished mine last Saturday with the help of two friends! :-) Improved over the carby already (30mins tuning). Though to be fair, it was damaged. Also to be fair, the damaged part was not the part improved over!
NoNameBrand wrote:I bought a partially populated Jaguar from Impregacy and received it in the mail yesterday.
Great news! :-)
NoNameBrand wrote:I should be able to use the existing VR sensors on crank (RPM?), Temp, TPS (came with throttle bodies)
Almost certainly. Was the crank sensor used for ignition previously? What type of stock ignition did it/does it have?
NoNameBrand wrote:My overall goal is to have the bike back up and running by late this month with full sequential fuel and spark if possible.
You're not going to meet your goal without either lowering your quality standards a LOT or writing a LOT of code. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1084
NoNameBrand wrote:I do not know as much about this systems as I feel I probably should going into this. I will likely have many questions. Please bear with me.
No problem. If you load some skype or google credit you can give me a call over the weekend on a land line for a few cents a minute and I can tell you a few stories :-)
NoNameBrand wrote:I am hoping to have a timing sprocket made up for the cam sensing in the next day or two but I am hoping that someone here can shed some light on some specifics about that.
NoNameBrand wrote:Figure out what I need for the cam position sensor. I was thinking a 36-1 sprocket but Impregacy mentioned that the 36-1 may only be used for crank position.
I am planning to put the sprocket between where the timing chain comes up and one of the lobes (Timing sprocket is in the middle) so space is very limited. Maybe 1/3" - 1/2". I have not measured yet. Are there any pickups that anyone would recommend?
36-1 has a relatively limited maximum RPM at the moment. It'll get you running for sure, but not revving to redline without a badly needed fix that I have in my mind but not on disk, yet. Missing tooth also has no cam sync support right now, however this would be trivial to hack in provided quick starting isn't something that interests you. I'd recommend starting out with just a crank wheel like 36-1 or 12-1 (which will rev as high as you dare) and upgrade your setup to full or partial sequential later. This is for more reasons than just system weakness: Don't bite off more than you can chew - start simple. Also see this: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1699 note bold item :-) what this implies is that you should get your setup going in whatever way you can and make yourself available for testing improved code and new features on a continual basis :-)
NoNameBrand wrote:Figure out a setup for the throttle bodies. Splitting them leaves one side without throttle cables. I MAY do some kind of a throttle by wire system as I don't have the equipment to do any proper custom fabrication work and don't want to spend the money to have it done for me. I am however pretty decent (imo) at writing firmware and use stepper motors fairly regularly so I am looking to that as a possible option. Having a TPS should be able to alleviate any worry about the steppers not being where they "think" they are as well so it should be easier than normal.
If you do do this, use dual TPS units. And even then, don't trust it too much. OEM setups these days do not use resistive pot-based setups at all. We ran a honda engine with DBW in November last year successfully, but that code was not road-worthy.
NoNameBrand wrote:I need to figure out the O2 sensor - The exhaust 4-2; Does this matter or am I going to be getting skewed data as a result of this? Again, any recommendations for sensors would be appreciated.
Should be OK with a partial stream. Keep it away from the tip by at least 200 to 300mm and away from the engine by the balance. If you can't manage those, do your best, but be aware of reversion of flow that reaches surprisingly far up the tip. Get a setup from Alan here: http://14point7.com
NoNameBrand wrote:Figure out MAP sensor.
These solder to the Jaguar board. This is also not a lot of use with ITBs and peaky cammy engines. Make sure your TPS setup is accurate and your throttles tight and crisp with respect to each other and the sensor.
NoNameBrand wrote:Figure out how to interface with IAC valve
Stepper or PWM?
NoNameBrand wrote:
  • Farthest (possibly never)
  • Boost?
  • Boost control?
Yep, not difficult to do, not done yet, but I'll be working on resurrecting engine 2 this weekend and should have it running in a few months at the latest.

Sorry for the lag! Hope this helps. PM me for the number once you load some credit up.

Fred.
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
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NoNameBrand
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Re: NoNameBrand's 1985 Honda VF500F Build

Post by NoNameBrand »

Thanks for the offer and help. If I can find the time this weekend, I would like to give you a call. I'll put some questions/responses here first though.
Almost certainly. Was the crank sensor used for ignition previously? What type of stock ignition did it/does it have?
I'm not 100% sure but I am thinking yes. Iginition looks like this; two coil packs:
Image
Would it be more reasonable to start with injection then work towards ignition afterwards?

I would still very much like to have full sequential injection.
Out of curiosity, why does 36-1 limit for cam but not crank? Shouldn't the cam be spinning at half the speed? I'm just asking this as someone on the outside looking in; I don't know what's going on inside and won't pretend to right now.
Just so you know, redline is 12k rpm.
If you do do this, use dual TPS units. And even then, don't trust it too much. OEM setups these days do not use resistive pot-based setups at all. We ran a honda engine with DBW in November last year successfully, but that code was not road-worthy.
Rather than a pot, would you suggest something more like This?

Not sure the IACV is stepper or pwm. I tried looking into it briefly today but didn't find much. I'll give it another go tomorrow morning.

Sorry I took a while to get back to you. It was a busy day/night for me.
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Re: NoNameBrand's 1985 Honda VF500F Build

Post by Fred »

You have about 10 hours from now to call, if you want. Otherwise next weekend is the earliest it can work.

What is the stock crank wheel, then? 36-1 or something else? Your OEM ignition is wasted spark, stick with it, it's good to well higher than your redline.

You might be able to share sensors to get injection only, or it might be a lot more trouble than it's worth. And if you can make it work at all, then you'll need a hack to use a cam sync with missing tooth and get the data you need. And starting will be relatively slow, too.
Out of curiosity, why does 36-1 limit for cam but not crank? Shouldn't the cam be spinning at half the speed?
I don't understand this question. Either I messed up (if so, quote me) or you need to read what I wrote again?

Your challenge re DBW is staying alive. And by that I mean 100% robust and reliable systems from end to end, full stack. Building your own rotary encoder hardware would mean building that twice, too. I would strongly suggest that you don't bite off more than you can chew, and run in the simplest configuration possible at first (adapt a cable) and then step by discrete step, upgrade and improve incrementally from there. Only once you're running can you know which direction you want to go in.

What is your motivation for sequential? Semi-sequential tends to run better OOTB anyway in my experience. Is this thread at all relevant to you? :-D

No worries re delay, I've got plenty to do that isn't answer forum posts :-D

Fred.
DIYEFI.org - where Open Source means Open Source, and Free means Freedom
FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!
NoNameBrand
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Re: NoNameBrand's 1985 Honda VF500F Build

Post by NoNameBrand »

What is your motivation for sequential? Semi-sequential tends to run better OOTB anyway in my experience. Is this thread at all relevant to you? :-D
Not most of those, but at least some of them may be me.

I'm going to try giving you a call now.
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