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'81 Mini Clubman Estate 
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Just for the reference, this is a raw unfiltered no-strategy RPM trace from an engine just a few days ago, the variance peak to peak is nearly 1k RPM or 20%, +/-10%, using the right strategy on this will clean up the RPM trace a LOT, but it won't clean up the edges upon which the timing is based, at all. IE, timing jitter on cam-triggered engines is a physical reality that is not feasible to avoid.

Image

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Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:39 am
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ehb wrote:
Alright, thanks for the heads up. I'll fabricate something then. :)

there are quite a lot 36-1 trigger set ups readily available for this engine that fit the crank damper


Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:11 pm
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LQFP112 - Up with the play

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KLAS wrote:
there are quite a lot 36-1 trigger set ups readily available for this engine that fit the crank damper

Thanks KLAS, that was good info!
The reason I was opting for a cam signal pickup mainly had been because I don't like the word "wasted" in "wasted spark". :lol2: But surely it's a non-issue and crank trigger is more than good enough.

Do you happen to know a Germany-based webshop for these crank trigger wheels?

I read up a little on crank dampers and am now even considering an aftermarket piece like this, considering that the assembly of pulley, damper and trigger wheel should be fairly balanced...


Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:07 am
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1) What inlet port configuration does your fancy head have?

2) I was looking at minis today on trademe, no estates listed, though :-) One had factory wasted spark mounted on the front of the engine, and was 19knzd :-o one of those late model reproduction ones 1994?

3) I guess you know how wasted spark works, but if not, the spark isn't wasted, it's effectively a dead short through highly ionised exhaust gas :-) 99.9% of the energy goes into the high resistance mixture in the cylinder you want to light up, it's all good. The only down side is setting up timing when it's not running - no ionised exhaust gas makes for difficulty in getting a spark to light up the pulley, sometimes.

4) "Do you happen to know a Germany-based webshop for these crank trigger wheels?" < afraid of the UK to EU import tariffs? :-D Too soon?

5) That's a nice looking piece you linked there. I'm wondering how it's constructed and which bits are damped/not etc, though. A cross section diagram would be good to see before laying down the pounds/euros. IE, the trigger should be fixed, and the belt drive should be isolated (to protect the alternator from the harshness of combustion)

6) Did you see the rough one we did with the starlet? It even has run out and it's still fine :-D Fine because on the crossing edge the run out matters very little AFAICT. Some pictures of the roughness:

Machined spacers, fasteners, 1UZ-FE 12 tooth disk with 4 holes: https://twitter.com/FredCookeNZ/status/ ... 3406785536
1UZ-FE 12 tooth disk with one cut off: https://twitter.com/FredCookeNZ/status/ ... 5569579012
All installed: https://twitter.com/FredCookeNZ/status/ ... 2609925120
Results on scope: https://twitter.com/FredCookeNZ/status/ ... 4614084608

Inlined the last two:

Image

Image





And some PNGs:

Image

Image

Image





It's really not THAT critical, but nice stuff is nice stuff, and if you've got the funds, why not! :-D

Spudmn still holds the record for worst missing tooth setup with just 8-1. No, wait! I lie. Peter ran his J series honda on *cam* speed 6-2 for a while, but it was only the fueling IIRC, so not too important. Both pretty bad, though :-D Even 8-1 is 75% better than what my hotel has on it, and with crank precision, it's just flat out better in every way.

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Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:54 am
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LQFP112 - Up with the play

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Quote:
1) What inlet port configuration does your fancy head have?

Not that fancy, just larger valves. It's the usual weird 5-port, so two inlet ports total (picture below).

Quote:
2) one of those late model reproduction ones 1994?

Actually, iirc, normal production went on until 2000. The late models even had multi-point injection, but not sure about how the ignition was solved. Would have to check myself. True, Minis have gotten pretty expensive. I'm OK with that, I've got mine already. :P

Quote:
3) Wasted spark stuff

Re-read the Wikipedia article, thanks! Ok, so this wouldn't matter. Same so if I chose to use coil-on-plug, right? It's just a useless spark happening on exhaust stroke.

Quote:
4) afraid of the UK to EU import tariffs? :-D

Not the only reason. :) German businesses tend to be reliable, quick with shipping and all costs are foreseeable. I've had opposite experiences with UK-based sellers and would rather avoid them.
And besides: I support any country defying this monstrosity called EU. What happens in Brussels is in no way democratically legitimate and vastly dictated by Germany. I like the €uro though...

Quote:
5) I'm wondering how it's constructed and which bits are damped/not etc, though. A cross section diagram would be good to see

True! The way I see it is the center is rigid and the pulley + trigger wheel are bolted to that. The dampening mass seems to be separate from those.
The original part uses a rubber-cored damper, wheras this aftermarket one uses friction dampening. I'd prefer the latter, but meh, I'm probably overthinking this. Others remove the damper entirely.

Quote:
6) & Peter ran his J series honda on *cam* speed 6-2 for a while

Nice! I guess with 36-1 we're golden, right? Or, if indeed I were to fab one, would even more teeth make sense? I guess not.

From what I was able to gather (by image searching for "trigger wheel mini a-series"), most of the trigger wheels are bolted to the outside of the damper or the pulley (in case of missing damper). There's this kit here that's screwed right onto the crank.
Space-wise, I'd rather have the trigger wheel on the inside of the pulley, replacing the timing disc (picture attached), but couldn't find any ready-made parts yet. KLAS, is there such a part yet? :)

Since I'm bound to choose, which brand/type of crank sensor is recommended?

Thanks guys!


Attachments:
File comment: Crank pulley
crank_pulley.JPG
crank_pulley.JPG [ 79.64 KiB | Viewed 1988 times ]
File comment: Cylinder head ports Mini A+Series
cylhead_ports.JPG
cylhead_ports.JPG [ 626.74 KiB | Viewed 1988 times ]
Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:26 pm
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where in Germany are you? i'm in Hamburg.

i don't know any shops for that, as i usually build my own parts. and of cause i put the trigger wheel on the inside, like this
Image
this damper may come up for sale as i sold the car without engine and will disassemble the engine soon, if noone wants it as a unit.
the trigger ring is from a rare (here in Germany) Ford engine modded to fit the Mini damper and i'm using a Ford VR sensor. if i remember i could take a more recent picture of it fitted to the engine tomorrow.

the multi point injection Minis use a specific trigger pattern, 36-1-1-1-1 unevenly spaced to detect the differend TDCs, at the flywheel and a camshaft sensor for sequential injection and wasted spark ignition. the earlier TBI engine uses 36-1-1 evenly spaced as they always uses a dizzy


Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:27 pm
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LQFP112 - Up with the play

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KLAS wrote:
where in Germany are you? i'm in Hamburg.

I'm from 30 km south of Darmstadt, in the beautiful Odenwald region. The ideal habitat for minis. ;) I've never been to Hamburg, but have only met nice people from there. :)

Quote:
i don't know any shops for that, as i usually build my own parts. and of cause i put the trigger wheel on the inside, like this

Ha, awesome, just as I envisioned building it myself!

Quote:
this damper may come up for sale as i sold the car without engine and will disassemble the engine soon, if noone wants it as a unit.

That sounds intriguing and I would be very interested in the modified damper and maybe even the sensor + bracket, if you can't sell the engine as a whole. It's not time critical either, I'm still in the planning stage, but having those parts would spare me quite some time.
You don't happen to have a high-lift rocker lever shaft lying around too, do you? :)
(For all non-german speakers, the correct translation for that shaft would be "Hochhubkipphebelwelle", in short: HHKHW. I always found that a fun word to say. ;) )

Quote:
if i remember i could take a more recent picture of it fitted to the engine tomorrow.

Thank you very much, but don't bother, I can imagine what it looks like. :)

Quote:
the multi point injection Minis use a specific trigger pattern, 36-1-1-1-1 unevenly spaced to detect the differend TDCs, at the flywheel and a camshaft sensor for sequential injection and wasted spark ignition. the earlier TBI engine uses 36-1-1 evenly spaced as they always uses a dizzy

Thanks for clarifying, that's interesting! I always thought the SPI engine had electronic ignition too, guess I was wrong.


Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:57 pm
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ehb wrote:
KLAS wrote:
where in Germany are you? i'm in Hamburg.

I'm from 30 km south of Darmstadt, in the beautiful Odenwald region. The ideal habitat for minis. ;) I've never been to Hamburg, but have only met nice people from there. :)
yeah, a lot of nice people over here. i'm not one of them :twisted:


Quote:
Quote:
this damper may come up for sale as i sold the car without engine and will disassemble the engine soon, if noone wants it as a unit.

That sounds intriguing and I would be very interested in the modified damper and maybe even the sensor + bracket, if you can't sell the engine as a whole. It's not time critical either, I'm still in the planning stage, but having those parts would spare me quite some time.
You don't happen to have a high-lift rocker lever shaft lying around too, do you? :)
(For all non-german speakers, the correct translation for that shaft would be "Hochhubkipphebelwelle", in short: HHKHW. I always found that a fun word to say. ;) )

Quote:
if i remember i could take a more recent picture of it fitted to the engine tomorrow.

Thank you very much, but don't bother, I can imagine what it looks like. :)

no, i don't have high lift rockers. generally i don't use them as they tend to push the power up the rev range and i like my engine torquey from low down

Quote:
Quote:
the multi point injection Minis use a specific trigger pattern, 36-1-1-1-1 unevenly spaced to detect the differend TDCs, at the flywheel and a camshaft sensor for sequential injection and wasted spark ignition. the earlier TBI engine uses 36-1-1 evenly spaced as they always uses a dizzy

Thanks for clarifying, that's interesting! I always thought the SPI engine had electronic ignition too, guess I was wrong.
no, you are right, it is fully electronically controlled. but it doesn't need to know with cylinder is at top dead center. only when top dead center of any cylinder is. cylinder selection is handled by the dizzy.
the MPi's wasted spark ignition on the other hand needs to know which cylinder pair is next to fire the correct coil. thats why it needs more and other teeth missing


Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:12 pm
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LQFP112 - Up with the play

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KLAS wrote:
i'm not one of them

:o :lol2: :indiff: You wouldn't post if it were so. ;)
Thanks for the explanation of the SPIs ignition system. Good to know.

Progress has been made these past days and thought I'd post as Fred does. :)

- Received some parts
- Derusted the exhaust manifold with "Fertan" and a wire brush under running water; removed the the already defunct O2 sensor nut (-> welded shut by pre-owner) and patched up the hole; then thoroughly heated up the parts with a heat gun; painted them with VHT GS102 heat resistent paint; heated up the parts again (two times) until smoke ceased coming off -> Hopefully burnt in. (Note: Just hand that crap over to sandblasting next time, then paint)
Attachment:
CIMG4343.small.JPG
CIMG4343.small.JPG [ 158.5 KiB | Viewed 1959 times ]

- Milled away parts of the intake manifold so that it doesn't collide with the valve cover. Also milled down the screw seats to match the thickness of the header flanges.
- Individually removed between 1.5 and 6.5 mm from the new manifold studs (on a lathe) so they're just as long as need be on the outside and as long as the thread goes into the cylinder head. Now there's no trouble getting on those nuts and all the thread is used. Then fitted all studs with industrial nickel paste "Chesterton 725". Awesome stuff I hadn't known until these days.
Attachment:
CIMG4334.small.JPG
CIMG4334.small.JPG [ 293.11 KiB | Viewed 1959 times ]
Attachment:
CIMG4340.small.JPG
CIMG4340.small.JPG [ 557.55 KiB | Viewed 1959 times ]
Attachment:
CIMG4336.small.JPG
CIMG4336.small.JPG [ 552.69 KiB | Viewed 1959 times ]

- Drew up and fabricated a (two-part) closing plate for the huge hole between engine and passenger compartment. The old one (made by pre-owner) was fitted on the engine side, not leaving enough room for the air filter (see groove from scrubbing) and not sealing in various places (=engine smell on the inside).
Attachment:
CIMG4351.small.JPG
CIMG4351.small.JPG [ 625.19 KiB | Viewed 1959 times ]

The newly created plates are recessed (milled away ~0.75 mm of 1.5 mm sheet) at their mating edge, so they overlap and seal nicely. Also used the original welded-on nuts, albeit just to stick through some M4 screws. Also, the grommet around the cables is of use now.
Attachment:
CIMG4348.small.JPG
CIMG4348.small.JPG [ 586.88 KiB | Viewed 1959 times ]

Once again: Why can't this part be bought?! There must be thousands of odd self-made creations for that hole.
- Built a new bracket that catches both header pipes and latches to the original bracket (at the differential). Also spaces apart the pipes so the Y-piece slips on easily.
- Measured & ordered an exhaust flex piece, ordered O2 bung too.

Next up:
- Wait for flex piece & O2 bung to arrived. Weld those in.
- Remove hole cover from engine bay again, paint black, seal around, re-fit.
- Fit carb again

Later on:
- Replace broken steering boot

Have a nice day!


Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:39 pm
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ehb wrote:
Progress has been made these past days and thought I'd post as Fred does. :)

Hooray! The more the merrier. I'd feel less bad about the flood of posts if more people were posting their stuff too :-D

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FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:18 pm
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