GSXR 1100 Carbs to EFI (fingers crossed)

[gixxer-harry]

Hello all
Sorry for my bad English (so thats out of the way)
I am Harry and i am from Holland
I live near Assen in the north of the country
I am 45 year old and i like tinkering whit bikes and really old cars
I want to EFI my 1991 GSXR 1100 because i want to put a Little turbo on it (i have a TD04-15 and a T28 under the workbench)
For the turbo i have to retard the ignition under boost,so i have to put something electronic on there so why not go all the way and put EFI on it?
My plan is to first get the sparks going then the injection part and then the turbo part of the project
In shears of an EFI system i found this site and fell in love whit it,i love real open source
Fred all ready pointed out to me that the Free ems isn't a strait fit,well there arnt any strait fit efi's for motorcycles yet
The ones u can buy u also have to make fit for the setup one is using
The Microsquirt i find very limited,u cant change it and you cant data log whit ti so thats a no
Microsquirt is in a very big box (room is a problem on my bike),Not that open source anymore and what i read not that good of a design
So if i have to build something than why not FreeEMS

Max revs of the bike are 12000, my rods don't like more revs
For sensors all my options are open,there arnt any on the bike so i have to put them on there
Same goes for the trigger wheel set up (trigger-wheels.com sells a 36-1 that i can fit to the bike)
I have throttle body's from a GSXR 600 whit injectors and they kinda fit and there is a tps on there
I want to use stick-coils from a newer type of gsxr and i can run it in wasted spark or not
I really like the Hyundai Hotel box to fit the electronics and there is room for it on the bike

The mechanical site of the project isn't a problem,i can do electrics but for the electronic bit i really need all the help i can get
I do understand it a Little and played whit a arduino for a while so i can make a led blink,computers are not my strong point but Google is my friend

So where do i sign up for and get things started LOL

Have a nice day
Harry

[DaWaN]

Hi there!
Your EFI ideas for your Suzuki look good, cool thing you want to make use of FreeEMS.
Do you have pictures of the bike ?

I am from Holland btw and have enough electronics / C / micrcontroller knowledge to help you with implementing the FreeEMS system on your bike in Dutch. It's a shame you live far away from me... I live near Utrecht

[gixxer-harry]

Thx for the offer DaWaN, i may keep you to it,well i need a lot of help whit this stuff so all help is more then welcome
Utrecht isn't that far away from me,well nothing is far away in Holland

My plan is to use a TA board whit a VR sensor board (bike has a vr sensor for crank position stock,i like KISS)
1 4-channel ignition board for the Denso stick-coils i want to use
1 4-channel injection board for the injectors (or one instead of two boards if i run the bike in wasted spark)
There is a Denso MAP sensor hooked up to the throttle-body's so i may use that one and also the TPS that is on there
Do i need a intake air temp sensor? if so i think i am going to use a Denso sensor from a other type Suzuki bike
For the cold start enrichment i don't know how to that,bike is air/oil cooled and there is no room in the cylindered to place a temp sensor,so maybe something using time (10-20 seconds) is a option?
And i need to buy a wide-band O2 sensor and controller
If there is a soft and hard rev limiter in the software then i don't need a tacho output but would be nice to have it some day

Find a nice box to put it al in, shake/sture well and start the engine LOL

Am i on the right track whit the above or do i completely mis the point here,don't get it and have to stand in the naughty corner now?

Can i think of the TA board is kinda the same as a Arduino but a lot more power full?
I mean whit programming and hooking up stuff
Remember i am a complete noop whit the electronic stuff so please be gentle and patients whit me

[Fred]

Sorry that I've not had time to reply, I'll get to you in detail soon, I promise. My wife had her birthday today... :-)

What is the pattern under the VR sensor stock? Use jbperf.com max99xx board for that, it's a good move, assuming the pattern is suitable. I was going to suggest a simple 8 crank 1 cam setup like the R1 has :-)

Be careful using the air temp sensor, which you DO need, from OEM stuff, many are not suitable. You want something with an open element, GM products (opel in europe) have decent sensors (though the cars are junk lol) which work well. Denso = Toyota = usually crap IAT sensor wise. They have large thermal inertia. You also need to be very careful about placement of that sensor.

Engine temp wise, you could go old fashioned:

switch to ground or 5v rail out the input for normal warmed up running, pot on the "dash" to act like a choke for manual control of AFR during warm up, and a custom lookup table to produce the desired result. HOWEVER, I would strongly recommend trying to install a head temp sensor somewhere. VW guys do it a lot, you just need to get something close to the chamber and it should be reasonable. The big thing is latency, ie, thermal resistance between sensor and engine running surface. If it's reasonable, it'll be good enough for warm up purposes, though you'll need to target an area that doesn't fluctuate too much with increasing decreasing road speed/load, OR, make your "zero" region in your curves pretty wide to ensure no effects when over/under cooling within reasonable margins.

Do the stick coils have built in ignitors? If not, you might be better off mounting ignitors close to them and running a signal from the ECU box. Ignition inside the ECU = asking for trouble, though many bike ecus do do that.

Re boards, you'll likely want to do something like:

TA in the middle
inputs on top
Outputs underneath

I've been dreaming of such a setup for a long time, but one suitable for your bike for a relatively short time. There are a few guys that I could ask to draw up something suitable so as not to spend my time on that (inefficiently).

wbo2 and controller you don't necessarily need to run on the bike all the time. There are some small ones that could be suitable, though, if you want to.

re TA/arduino, yes, kind of :-)

naughty corner is reserved for those who offer no value and/or waste my time or the time of my best helpers! :-) hopefully you never go there.

oem map and tps should be 100% fine. you'll need calibration data for the map sensor though.

+1 for pics :-)

"My plan is to first get the sparks going then the injection part and then the turbo part of the project" - GOOD plan! :-)

Fred all ready pointed out to me that the Free ems isn't a strait fit,well there arnt any strait fit efi's for motorcycles yet
The ones u can buy u also have to make fit for the setup one is using
The Microsquirt i find very limited,u cant change it and you cant data log whit ti so thats a no
Microsquirt is in a very big box (room is a problem on my bike),Not that open source anymore and what i read not that good of a design
So if i have to build something than why not FreeEMS

All true! :-)

12k should be fine provided that you don't use 60-2 - you'll be our highest revving engine so far if you get it going before sean and his turbo r1

ok, sorry for the messy post, though that should answer it well.

BTW, I reckon you can go a LOT smaller than the hotel setup!

Fred.

[gixxer-harry]

Your sure you want to see my bike?
It isnt a nice bike but i like her
Let met see if this works
This is her from a few years back

This is how she looks now

And how she going to look next year i dont know yet

[gixxer-harry]

Fred dont waste your time on me yet,you have far more importend stuff to do
I first have to get some more parts
I now know a little what i need and can go hunting for parts now
Is the Bosch 0 227 100 211 4-Channel Ignition controler some thing i can use?
I am going to order the TA soon

[Fred]

I'll spend time on you, you seem genuine, have enthusiasm, and are making the right noises :-) Plus, your taste in bike seats is second to NONE! LOL :-) Cool!!!

/me googles the ignitor... Yes, that looks absolutely ideal! Be careful ordering the TA, make sure you get the right connector style for your desired physical setup.

I might mock up something for you so you can see how small it could be!

Fred.

[Fred]

PS, LOVE the classic Dutch bike in the background. I have a fond memory of rolling around on one of those on a Sunday afternoon just before heading to th' 'ring! :-)

[gixxer-harry]

Hello boy's and girls

Small update:
I am working,reading and learning for the project
I ordered:
Denso stick coils plugs
Connectors for the plugs(are not that easy to find btw so i got me a wire loom from a H*nda motorcycle)
Bosch 0 227 100 211 igniter's (VW Passat and other VW cars)
36-1 trigger wheel that fits on my bike whit a Little work

I thought about ordering a peak&hold board for the injectors but i found a schematic in the MSIImanual and thought i can make that myself
Same goes for the VR sensor board schematic that i found in the Ravage project
The Bosch igniter don't need a special circuit (i think) and can be fired by the 1/0 board directly
I wanted to get me a Jimstim but i can bench test whit out it i think so did not order that
I found a new Bosch fuel pump in the shed that i all forgot about that i can use so that was nice
The TPS and MAP sensor that are on the GSXR600 throttle body's are strait forward so i can use them
All that is left is some kind of fuel presure regulator but thats for a later date to worry about
So all the parts are there to build me a cool freeEMS powered motorcycle

So lets order a TA board,power supply wire and the project board from Technological-arts
And here comes the problem: they want 83 Dollar for shipping to Holland (they can do a lower price of 63 Dollar )
Jbperf wants 5 Dollar for shipping for up to 2 Jimstim to Europe and those boards are more or less the same size(also from Canada)
There is no way that i am going to pay 75 Dollars more for the same service
Technological-arts cant/won't do any ting about the shipping cost and this is for me a deal breaker
So i am not going to get me a TA board from them

I told Fred this and he came up whit the idea that i should build my own board and start learning in the deep end of the pool
I never did any SMD soldering in my live,i never soldered a circuit in my live so thats kinda hard for me i think
I know myself and i am very good at making all the mistakes one can make and invent some brand new mistakes
What board should i use
Puma,Ravage or the board Hotcad designed?
Is there a way around my problem?

I am stuck at the moment and don't know what way to go
If you nice people out there can point me in the right direction that would be very help full

Please do comment and give some pointers so i can get the ball rolling again

[Fred]

I thought about ordering a peak&hold board for the injectors but i found a schematic in the MSIImanual and thought i can make that myself

I don't know what you found, but if it doesn't involve LM1949 chips, then it's likely not a good idea. Remember, MS manuals contain SOME good info, and a bunch of crap too :-) Don't get caught out...

Same goes for the VR sensor board schematic that i found in the Ravage project

This is actually harder than, or equally hard as, soldering the CPU, these are VERY fine pitched... if you're going to do this, you're already in the deep end.

The Bosch igniter don't need a special circuit (i think) and can be fired by the 1/0 board directly

Buffer it with a line driver chip or you'll regret it. If the line driver can push 20mA you can use a 200ohm resistor and things are safe. You need to verify the input style of that module, though. Whether it is really logic level remains to be seen, do not trust ms information. If it's not logic level, and is a typical darlington setup, then you'll need a stronger drive for good performance.

I told Fred this and he came up whit the idea that i should build my own board and start learning in the deep end of the pool
I never did any SMD soldering in my live,i never soldered a circuit in my live so thats kinda hard for me i think
I know myself and i am very good at making all the mistakes one can make and invent some brand new mistakes

It will be a learning experience and take time, and you'll make mistakes, and it will cost money too, but it will be fun :-) [if the frustration doesn't kill you]

Puma,Ravage or the board Hotcad designed?

Do not use Puma spin 1, do not wait for spin 2 of puma, Ravage schematics are pretty good, but there is no PCB, hotcat's stuff is not verified by me, but could be OK.

Is there a way around my problem?

You have a choice: Shipping costs and through hole parts OR diy smd and pcb design OR wait for RavAGE to be completed and pay someone to build one for you. The only other way is to get TA to ship to a yank/canuck and let them ship it to you for cheaper.

Fred.