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New wideband controller ALM compared to Innovate LM-2 
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TO220 - Visibile

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:22 pm
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toalan wrote:
My testing jig for steady state and dynamic response
Image

My tank of lab Gas, I have 2 other tanks comming in.
Image

That is basically my testing jig, for dynamic response calibration gas is passes through the solenoid at high pressure, the solenoid value shuts and opens at around 10ms. I put the jig together because the results are repeatable unlike having a bunch of O2 sensors on an exhaust.

I have results, I do not publish them, because quite frankly I need to build a better jig and get more gases for the results to have any merit. My jig also has to be checked over by an impartial 3rd party and the tests need to be done by an impartial 3rd party. I do not know how you can just ghetto weld a bunch of bungs on an exhaust, take some selective screen shot with your scope, and be bold enough to make the claims you do.


I think the sensor head should be directly in the stream as it's in an exhaust, now there seems to be a gas pocket.
It's only the results in a real life working engine that matters, consistent and repeatable measures in a lab won't have much credit in the field after the product is in it's working environment. Of course the lab stuff is required in development phase etc. but when evaluating which one is the best, those should be as a reference only and actual behaviour with an engine should be that counts the 'winner'.


Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:03 am
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Quote:
It's a matter of opinion.

No, it's a matter of not making gross assumptions.

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The same goes for the rest of wbo2 manufacturers too...

Except the ALM, right? :-p

antonmies, is finland flat? Do you have no trailers there? There are many ways to stop a car accelerating and using the brakes is probably the worst. If you tried to use only the brakes and they were biased correctly, and you had 600hp, and it was RWD (fwd would be a joke) you'd end up doing circles down the road as the weight transfer forward would reduce the already insufficient traction at the rear end and cause copious wheel spin which the deservedly smaller rear brakes would be totally unable to counter.

I have no "alan glasses", Alan glasses are not required, he is self critical, and that is why I respect his opinion. No BS, totally unlike this unprofessional ecotrons character. Additionally, I've never said that Alan's products are fantastic, or anything other than fantastic, as I'm yet to have evaluated one of them. This is my fault and I intend to change that situation shortly as I have a vehicle available to me now. On my project car, I still have the LC-1 that I put on it years ago when I first set it up. It's still functioning reliably, despite extended storage periods, probably because the mileage is quite low. In any case, it's never been anything other than accurate and reliable for me. Purely subjective, of course, unlike Alan's test rig, which is probably approximating the best way to do a step test in gas measurement. Using an engine as you suggest is a total and utter joke. Even if you switch the PW over such that it goes directly from X AFR to Y AFR, there are various physical reasons why the AFR will not follow your PW step. A scientific test rig is the only reasonable way to measure such a thing.

You're odd for a Finn, most are very reasonable and level headed. You seem to be a troll, or just hell bent on being a knob for sport.

Fred.

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Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:28 am
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I agree that the ford muscle tests were flawed, that is why I went out a put together a jig and spent money on test gases. You use the same method ford muscle uses, you are even less objective than ford muscle because you have direct benefit from showing your product in the best light, yet you criticize ford muscle.

How do you know that innovate was not showing the correct AFR and your unit was during fast AFR transition? You do not know because you do not know the actual AFR of the gas when you ghetto weld bungs to an engine. You have no idea if your design is even accurate at steady state because you have not tested it with lab gas.

All you have done was follow an application schematic, and for that you expect to be the king of the world.

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Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:52 am
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TO220 - Visibile

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toalan wrote:
How do you know that innovate was not showing the correct AFR and your unit was during fast AFR transition? You do not know because you do not know the actual AFR of the gas when you ghetto weld bungs to an engine.

TRUE, I don't know the absolute AFR or lambda of the exhaust gas out of engine. I said that on our website. Nobody knows that because there is no such absolute reference available. You can spend thousands of dollars to build a test rig, you still don't know what the absolute AFR is at the sensor head.

I used a simple method: change the fueling at front and make the Lambda oscillating; and check which signal is following which. The leading signal obviously has the faster reponse than the trailing one. The clean and leading signal has better accuracy than the noisy and trailing one, because you can not be both leading and clean if filter or integrator used.

Scope traces may look cheap, but they do not lie.
They may not tell everything, but it's better than nothing.
Data is the king, even it's limited.


Last edited by ecotrons on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:57 am, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:04 am
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TO220 - Visibile

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Quote:
Quote:
The same goes for the rest of wbo2 manufacturers too...

Except the ALM, right? :-p

antonmies, is finland flat? Do you have no trailers there? There are many ways to stop a car accelerating and using the brakes is probably the worst. If you tried to use only the brakes and they were biased correctly, and you had 600hp, and it was RWD (fwd would be a joke) you'd end up doing circles down the road as the weight transfer forward would reduce the already insufficient traction at the rear end and cause copious wheel spin which the deservedly smaller rear brakes would be totally unable to counter.

I have no "alan glasses", Alan glasses are not required, he is self critical, and that is why I respect his opinion. No BS, totally unlike this unprofessional ecotrons character. Additionally, I've never said that Alan's products are fantastic, or anything other than fantastic, as I'm yet to have evaluated one of them. This is my fault and I intend to change that situation shortly as I have a vehicle available to me now. On my project car, I still have the LC-1 that I put on it years ago when I first set it up. It's still functioning reliably, despite extended storage periods, probably because the mileage is quite low. In any case, it's never been anything other than accurate and reliable for me. Purely subjective, of course, unlike Alan's test rig, which is probably approximating the best way to do a step test in gas measurement. Using an engine as you suggest is a total and utter joke. Even if you switch the PW over such that it goes directly from X AFR to Y AFR, there are various physical reasons why the AFR will not follow your PW step. A scientific test rig is the only reasonable way to measure such a thing.

You're odd for a Finn, most are very reasonable and level headed. You seem to be a troll, or just hell bent on being a knob for sport.

Fred.

Sorry for the delay, got some food with my Zil
ALM has such technical data with sampling rates, accuracy with different lambdas etc. published and even data against competition, which we all know.

No, Finland is not flat and we do have trailers. Does Supras come with trailer hitch? Have you ever driven a 600hp car?

Nothing against alans test rig and lab measurements, but this is starting to sound these things are made for test rigs and lab gasses not intended to be a tool to tune a car?
The point is that such lab gas step test should act as a reference of the x afr and y afr how well does the thing read the standard gas and after that you put it in an engine to see how well it responds throttle changes, changing temperatures, flow velocities etc. by logging essential info. And if you would use mass air measurement and be aware of the fuel flow at given time, it gives a fairly good average of what the afr should be. But the point is that you would know the absolute measured values and the absolute accuracy from the lab test and then take it to the real world with real variables. But you do it as you see fit.
That's true that I'm a bit odd for a Finn as I don't automatically respect/believe any authority, titles, school diplomas, am not a member in church, don't lobotomize myself with TV etc. One would say I'm an asshole and I somewhat agree, but mostly I'm a nice guy. But I bet your experience of Finns is that you've seen Kankkunen, Mäkinen and Häkkinen speaking 'motorsport english' in TV :lol2:
What does this mean "hell bent on being a knob for sport", seeing that for the first time.


Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:06 am
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ecotrons wrote:
I used a simple method: change the fueling at front and make the Lambda oscillating; and check which signal is following which. The leading signal obviously has the faster reponse than the trailing one.

You missed Alan's point. Have you heard of a concept called phase?

Quote:
The clean signal has better accuracy than the noisy one.

Or a longer integration period...

Quote:
Scope traces look cheap, but they do not lie.

All stats lie to some extent and tell the story how the narrator wants it to be told. Yours especially, no doubt.

Quote:
They may not tell everything, but it's better than nothing.

Actually, it could easily be worse than nothing. I have lots of scope traces that I took to prove certain things in the early days. Most of them were convincing but wrong. I know better now, better than you, too.

antonmies wrote:
ALM has such technical data with sampling rates, accuracy with different lambdas etc. published and even data against competition, which we all know.

Sorry, whatever data he has is as credible as he is, which is not very after the parade he has put on in this thread. I hope the google rank of this thread is high, I'm sure it won't be too low, that's for sure.

Quote:
Does Supras come with trailer hitch?

My R32 Skyline had a trailer hitch on it! I put it there myself. I'll ask my mate with a 500hp twin turbo supra if he has one on his, I wouldn't be surprised, though.

Quote:
Have you ever driven a 600hp car?

550, 500, 400, and numerous others, the question is, at what weight? I totally understand fast cars, yes. Do you? I'm dubious.

Quote:
Nothing against alans test rig and lab measurements, but this is starting to sound these things are made for test rigs and lab gasses not intended to be a tool to tune a car?

What are you smoking up there? I mean, I guess you have to burn something to keep warm, right?

Quote:
and after that you put it in an engine to see how well it responds throttle changes, changing temperatures, flow velocities etc.

Fail. Finland is one of the three best educated countries in the world. My country is in that group too. What the fuck happened to you? You're ignoring the basics now. Go back and read it all again.

Quote:
And if you would use mass air measurement and be aware of the fuel flow at given time, it gives a fairly good average of what the afr should be.

Not to the same precision that the devices that we are talking about do. In fact, if they did, then you'd not need these types of products at all.

Quote:
But the point is that you would know the absolute measured values and the absolute accuracy from the lab test and then take it to the real world with real variables.

I have a BSc, have you ever conducted an experiment and had your conclusions and data run over with a fine tooth comb by someone with vastly more knowledge than you? It seems not.

Quote:
That's true that I'm a bit odd for a Finn as I don't automatically respect/believe any authority, titles, school diplomas, am not a member in church, don't lobotomize myself with TV etc.

Sounds like you don't have those yourself. Probably jealous of those who do. I smell an internet warrior. How old are you exactly?

Image

Quote:
But I bet your experience of Finns is that you've seen Kankkunen, Mäkinen and Häkkinen speaking 'motorsport english' in TV :lol2:

Who? I lived with one for a while and have known several others over the internet for many years.

Quote:
What does this mean "hell bent on being a knob for sport", seeing that for the first time.

Hell bent = intent, really wants to, is going to stop at nothing to, etc.
Knob = dick, cock, etc.
Sport = something you do for fun.

Fred.

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Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:51 am
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Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:04 pm
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If you want an unbiased review, send me a unit. I currently own more widebands than any two members on this forum - including an LM-2 - and that doesn't include the 10+ Techedge/LC-1/AEM(lol) I've round filed over the last decade.

FYI my educational background is EE, particularly instrumentation. I decided to fool with cars instead of get a real job, don't ask me why. :P


Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:10 am
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I can vouch for this man, he's likely tuned more cars than either of you clowns have even seen.

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FreeEMS.org - the open source engine management system
FreeEMS dev diary and its comments thread and my turbo truck!
n00bs, do NOT PM or email tech questions! Use the forum!
The ever growing list of FreeEMS success stories!


Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:16 am
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TO220 - Visibile

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Fred wrote:
My turn!

ecotrons wrote:
More professional tuners use the linearized analog output from the wideband controller as the feedback signal to the ECU, to control the AFR instantly.

Not possible. You clearly have no idea about engine control or even control loops in general. With the calibre of people on this forum, I don't think I need to say much more than that on this matter.

Fred.


Not possible to use a wideband controller as a feedback device? We have customers done this already:
http://www.ecotrons.com/ALM-helps-our-customers-with-their-flex-fuel-applications.html
Don't trust ours, check with Bosch and Commins (the largest diesel engine manufacturer in the world). Commins has used Bosch's LambdaTronic as the feedback device for diesel fueling controls for years. Here is the link of Bosch LambdaTronic:
http://www.bosch-engineering.de/pool/en/pdf/P03067_Smart_Sensor_EN.pdf

Do I know engine contorls? Ecotrons EFI kits have been running with variant small engines, converting carburetor engines to fuel injected. Here is a video of an engine I recently tuned with ALM (not done yet):
http://youtu.be/DAU6azKIyAA

EDIT: Putting back in content removed while I was asleep when ecotrons realised the magnitude of his mistake:

"Can you show something that you've actually done instead of critisizing others? Have you ever built an ECU or a wideband controller?"

EDIT: I can only imagine the scramble for the edit button that you performed when you realised what you'd done.


Last edited by Fred on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

Re-include removed attacks.



Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:23 am
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EDIT: Removed huge quote of no benefit. See above for content.

Nice picture of you, I'm a bit older than that. You should eat some kidney beans to get some muscles :lol:
Kankkunen, 4 times world champion, WRC
Mäkinen, 4 times world champion, WRC
Häkkinen, 2 times world champion, F1

Statistics for Finnish education seems nice and pretty much everyone can read. That's nice. They usually have decent grades too. That's nice too. Can they do anything after they get out of school? A few can, most can't. Finland very much want's to get rid of lower level workers, everything needs to be fancy and high tech. There has been a vast over production for engineers, BBA's etc. and many are able to get the degree just because they have a pulse... Schools get paid for the graduates, standards are low for the 'material' they get in and most graduate. Aftermath is lots of college and university graduates work at supermarkets. If you'd know the business climate back here, you'd know there is a huge shortfall of graduates that actually can do the things they studied for, realize something what's going on and have more than just the paper in their hands... So in other words, go f*uck yourself with the 'finland among three most educated countries' statistics that are based on BS and image polishing.
In a company I worked several years back, we did lot's of chemical and microbiological experiments in a lab for the paper industry and went through the data with a colleague with higher level of experience and knowledge, it was fairly good stuff and surely wasn't that off with my assumptions than the other guy. And still do it if necessary(check data with someone that is), but of course the field is different.
And yes, I've worked with many cars at those power levels being a consultant, have fabricated something or helped tuningwise.
About the air mass vs fuel flow, I said fairly good average, not the absolute truth. I'd say this is somewhat ems dependent how accurate the calculations are/would be.

g'nite, almost 5am and need to make an intake manifold tomorrow :indiff:


Last edited by Fred on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Removed useless and large quote.



Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:51 am
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