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New wideband controller ALM compared to Innovate LM-2 
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Wideband Wizard

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:53 am
Posts: 241
Location: Toronto Canada
There is no technical hurdle between using the 4.9 vs the 4.2. If you can design a controller that uses the 4.2, it is the exact same process as designing one that uses the 4.9. It took me maybe 2 days to tweek my existing controller from using the 4.2 to using the 4.9, it was all firmware related and 90% of that time was spent manually tweeking the PID loop for controlling the heater. I am totally indifferent to using the 4.2 vs the 4.9 from a technical point of view as they both perform identically to me, from an economic point of view I would prefer to use the 4.9 over the 4.2 because it is lighter and smaller so shipping is a bit cheaper, however in my neck of the woods the 4.9 costs 2x more than the 4.2.

It is true that Bosch recommends the 4.9 over the 4.2, you can infer from that that the 4.9 is superior to the 4.2. If you have a really convincing argument as to why the 4.9 is superior to the 4.2, then I would be receptive to hearing that and I would start using the 4.9 as I already have the firmware for the 4.9 done and tested a long time ago.

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Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:42 am
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1N4001 - Signed up

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:45 am
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The most important reason that Bosch upgraded the LSU 4.2 to LSU 4.9 is that LSU4.2 has a potential quality problem: susceptible to contaminations of reference air cell, which is called CSD (characteristic shift down). Once the reference air cell is contaminated, the sensor signal is no way accurate any more, because you just lost the reference. This is almost certain to happen after some time, and had been the biggest complain from OEMs to Bosch,
New LSU 4.9 replaced the reference air with the reference pump current, completely get rid of this problem.

This is the fundamental reason why LSU 4.2 requires frequent free air calibrations and LSU 4.9 does not need that.

It’s also funny to see people using the free air to calibrate LSU 4.2 sensor, where free air is the least accurate area for LSU 4.2. We all know LSU4.2 is poor to measure lean situations. LSU 4.2 is only good around lambda =1. It’s like you are calibrating the most accurate range by using the least one.


Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:28 am
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Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:45 am
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Fred wrote:
Harry, econtrons, diyhansen, how many usernames do you need? You're clogging up the database man! If you register a fourth one I will delete all of your accounts, clear?

For the record, both of Harry193's posts were invisible until now, so Alan didn't have the privilege of reading the first one before he wrote his post, despite how it appears now that I've approved them.

As for credibility, I know who I trust, and it's not the guy who pretends to post about his own product as someone else, who then signs up to reply to himself, and then again as another name some time later. It's Alan, who has always been equally critical of his own products, just as much as those of someone else. Keep digging, Harrysen.

Fred.


Again, I can not log in any more with "ecotrons" user name. It keeps telling me I am exceeding max time of log-in.
That's why I had not been able to post here for a long time.
I had to re-register with a different name to post. And I did say I am same guy as Ecotrons.
I think we are talking about a product here, not user IDs.


Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:36 am
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TO220 - Visibile

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:38 pm
Posts: 11
Works for me! PMing you your new password. Fred.


Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:28 am
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:38 pm
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ecotrons wrote:
Works for me! PMing you your new password. Fred.


Thanks! with the new password "ecotrons" account works now.
Is it possible to merge "Harry193" into "ecotrons" account?
If yes, please also merge the "diyhansen" into "ecotrons". if that is still possible with your forum rules. I did use "diyhanson" to start the thread. It is certainly not noble to do that. I apologize for that.

I hope from now on we can focus on discussing the products instead of user IDs. After all, people are more interested in the products, not who we are.

May the best wideband controller win!


Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:08 pm
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toalan wrote:
I have done this with my own stuff and other controllers as well. I did not bother to refine my testing jig, as I am quite convinced that regardless of controller design the bosch lambda sensor is not capable of resolving individual cylinder AFR at the collector, that is the holy grail. With that out of reach, resolving response time further is of no tangible benefit.



With new CARB OBDII regulations, measuring the individual cylinder AFR for emission controls has become a new requirement for all car OEMs. LSU4.9 has been used to do that. With appropriate installations and sophisticated algorithms in ECU; and with fast response of LSU 4.9 and robust controls via CJ125. Bosch and OEMs have proved they can do that with LSU 4.9.

PS: CARB - California Air Resource Board, who make laws on the most stringent emission controls in the world.


Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:20 pm
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jharvey wrote:
If there is a pipe length delay issue, why do the traces start at the same point, but reach a result at another point?

I would agree the above posts are missing some massive amounts of data. If you have equipment and such, perhaps you could fill in those gaps by posting a youtube, pictures, or similar that will show a the details of the tests, not just the testers opinion.


I see this as a very valid quesiton, I hope Dr. Mike can aswer this.

Dr. Mike keeps trying to educate people how LC-1 / LM-2 works and how fast and how accurate they are. It can certainly fill up people's mind that LC-1/LM-2 are very "advanced". After all, most poeple are not electronics savy.

But at the end of the day, the problem is: he has NO data to show.

It is so easier to question the creditability of others' data than to provide your own data.


Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:43 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:22 pm
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toalan wrote:
The only pro the 4.9 has over the 4.2 is that the nermest cell resistance is 300ohms @ 750C, the 4.2 is 80hms @ 750C. This means you can more precisely control the temperature of the sensor.

Both have the same lambda range and the same accuracy.

The 4.2 has larger holes for gas to enter, so it is a little bit faster responding.

I build units to work with the 4.2 and not the 4.9 primarily because in north America you can get the 4.2 for half the price of the 4.9. the other reason is that I have thousands of 4.2 connectors and pins already purchased. I have modified my units to work with the 4.9 in case 4.2 supply ever dries up or gets more expensive than the 4.9, all you need to do is change the ip vs 02 curve in firmware, change your target nermest resistance, and an overall reduction in the P I D constants controlling the heater power output based on the nermest resistance because the nermest resistance in the 4.9 is much higher.

Not to mention the heater frequency 2Hz vs 100Hz. I guess you could throw any Hz you'd like, but one with higher rating in the datasheet, would be more nimble to 'take orders' hence being more accurate to control and more accurate in measurement. This is why LSU 4.2 has bigger holes?

If they do have the same range, why does the other perform better throughout the range?

"thousands of 4.2 connectors and pins already purchased": So this is the real reason sticking to older tech? Well, head start for ALM.

About Innovate LC-1's fastness everyone is yelling about. It isn't being stated anywhere else than in their propaganda (marketing material). No measurement data, no further specs just hype. Same as PLX's 'Critical Response Technology'. Cool term, no data.


Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:01 pm
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ecotrons wrote:
Is it possible to merge "Harry193" into "ecotrons" account?

I'll consider it, as it seems genuine. It's likely not worth my time, though.

Quote:
If yes, please also merge the "diyhansen" into "ecotrons". if that is still possible with your forum rules. I did use "diyhanson" to start the thread. It is certainly not noble to do that. I apologize for that.

Apology accepted, however I will NOT hide what really happened from people happening across this thread in future. You solely are responsible for the consequences of your actions.

Quote:
May the best value wideband controller win!

Fixed. May the most reputable seller with the best service and best value product win.

Fred.

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Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:11 pm
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Fred wrote:
Quote:
May the best value wideband controller win!

Fixed. May the most reputable seller with the best service and best value product win.

Fred.


Best value consists of compromises as they must be feature packed at low cost and to do the features properly, it won't be in the best value zone anymore.


Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:15 pm
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